Commitee of Strategic Planning

[binTravkin]

Yes, from the spots you drew, blue looks like the best one (both as a city site and easy place to take).
If it's red, maybe we should think about razing it.
Green aint so good either - we need space on coast for coastal cities.

But, you can never know, what they've done with that third city.
They are somewhat eccentric..

[binTravkin]

I did some bean counting and this seems the best I can come up with in Beijing:

Turn	Build	Done	Prod.	Growth		Surplus	Whip	Remark
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
0:850	Col	252/250	+38	24/26(1)	+7	8	
1:825	Settler	20/100	+29	18/28(-)	0	7	move->woods
2	Settler	49/100	+12	18/28(-)	0	6	start chop(4)
3	Settler	61/100	+12	18/28(-)	0	5	(3)
4	Settler	73/100	+12	18/28(-)	0	4	(2)
5	Settler	122/100	+12	18/28(-)	0	3	done(+37)
6	Sword	0/40	+6+34	18/28(2)	+6	2	move->woods
7	Galley	0/50	+6	24/28(1)	+6	1	start chop(4)
8	Anarchy	-	-	-		-	0	Banana Peel
9	Galley	6/50	+11	16/30(3)	+4	0	(2)
10	Galley	17/50	+6+97	21/28(2)	+6	10	Whip(1), done*
11	Lighth.	0/60	+6+70	27/28(1)	+6	9
12	Anarchy						8	+conversion**
13	GL	0/200	+4+24	19/30(2)	+7	7
14	GL	28/200	+4	26/30(1)	+7	6
15	GL	32/200	+4	18/32(2)	+7	5
16	GL	36/200	+10	25/32(2)	+6	4
17	GL	46/200	+10	31/32(1)	+6	3
18	GL	56/200	+10	21/34(3)	+6	2
19	GL	66/200	+10	27/34(2)	+6	1
20	GL	76/200	+10	33/34(1)	+6	0
21	GL	86/200	+10+120	22/36(3)	+6	10	whip(4)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There's a single food point missing in 20th turn, if anyone sees where I can get it without disrupting the schedule, please let me know.

* - here our worker's employment near Beijing ends, it then departs to 4th city to help its growth.
Xian is also in need of additional mine, but it is not urgent.

** - here we convert Beijing to Judaism and on the same turn convert to Judaism as our state religion.

[PJayTycy]

For the settler, you can get +30 next turn instead of +29, by moving the worker from the +1 food, +3 hammers to the +4 hamers mine. We'll get one extra hammer from the forge (food surplus doesn't get the +25% from forges). Although 1 extra hammer doesn't matter that much in this sheme :-)

So, you propose to chop 2 more forests near Being and whip a total of 5 people.

[binTravkin]

Yeah, whip em' real hard!

That's quite Yangish btw..

[Lacero]

and for that we're getting 1 settler, 1 swordsman, 1 galley, 1 light house and the great lighthouse?

I can agree with it up until we start the lighthouse, I'm not sure the GL will be much use to us if we end up in a war with the only people we can trade with. I'd rather have another settler, we don't even have enough coastal cities to use the bonus internally.

[binTravkin]

and for that we're getting 1 settler, 1 swordsman, 1 galley, 1 light house and the great lighthouse?

1 settler for another city
1 swordsman to assist in war
1 galley to explore (PJay suggested it should be built asap)
1 lighthouse to use Colossus bonus and our new happiness cap
1 great lighthouse to instantly increase our GNP by 4 or 5 and more later, to deny the wonder to others and gain another +2 GPPs at Beijing. Merchants can turn out very useful to us if by the time we pop one we have Monarchy+CoL+Currency as then we can lightbulb CS (well at least almost-finish it) - bureaucracy being a wonderful civic to have

I can agree with it up until we start the lighthouse, I'm not sure the GL will be much use to us if we end up in a war with the only people we can trade with. I'd rather have another settler, we don't even have enough coastal cities to use the bonus internally.

Agreed, another settler would be nice, rice site is mediocre but it's the best we can get for now.


Other changes in the plan could include:

1.Sword -> fishing boat (to be dispatched north).
This is a bit risky tho as it leaves our warband less powerful (better safe than sorry) and barbarian galleys could be around by now.

2.Galley being omitted in favor of fishing boat/settler (I dont like the galley idea very much either - we've lots of things more urgent and with more obvious rewards).


Other ideas and opinions?

[Lacero]

The main reward of the galley would be finding a great city site in the islands and settling there, there's no risk of anyone getting to the huts first as no one else can build galleys. So... much as I like the idea of building a galley (and I'm wondering if our connection to the other continent is by coast or ocean) we probably shouldn't right now.

We have to make sure we win the war asap and grow our tech rate, the galley won't help without a settler on board. And we have other sites to settle on the mainland still.

About the GL, I thought it only gave you free sea trade routes, but I guess not. Two free trade routes in our coastal cities will be great, yeah.

[binTravkin]

Yes, it simply gives +2 trade routes, no matter sea or land.

The prospects of still getting GL if we delay it seem to rely on how many other civs have coastal cities developed enough to build it.
IIRC Mercs' second city could be coastal (by the culture expansion values). Is that right PJay?
In this case and knowing Mercs have trade route with Sarantium, I'd say that they're the only ones able and probably even willing to build that wonder, but seeing how they neither appear to have Mathematics nor Metal Casting and are not Industrious, building GL must become quite an effort for them.
Furthermore, seeing how they've built 4(!!!) settlers already, they must be having little other infrastructure built, so I'd say we're safe to build GL in next 25-30 turns.

[binTravkin]

I also completely agree that military and commerce/research should be main priorities until after the defeat of Bananas is imminent and close at hand.

Further wonder building analysis:
We have following wonders close in reach:

Wonder		Cost	Resource	Max. modifier*
------------------------------------------------------
Lighthouse	200	-		+100%
Gardens		300	Stone		+100%(+200%)**
Parthenon	400	Marble		+200%
Library		350	Marble		+200%
National Epic	250	Marble		+200%
Heroic Epic	200	Marble		+200%
Chitzen Itza	500	Stone		+100%(+200%)**
------------------------------------------------------

* - maximum attainable (by reasonable effort) positive modifier. This is very important to get as high as possible, because the short term cost efficency of wonders is often quite low.

** - in brackets given modifier with stone resource which implies conquest of Banana (they have stone near 2nd city)


As seen here, Lighthouse is the last wonder we can economically build as it doesn't require any resource.
We lack both marble and stone for further wonders, so I suggest delaying them (and fastening up settler production) until we can hook up at least marble.

Gardens would be very nice project to have after we conquer Bananas - immediate +1 pop in all cities is sure to add more strenght to our empire even if that citizen gets whipped to death right away.
I don't think there's real need of Chitchen Itza - any attacks we can anticipate will likely come when gunpowder is reality or at least close to being it.

Other projects, requiring marble are just a question of surplus settler and proper improvement. I already envision another wonder-building spree once Bananas are dead..

[binTravkin]

Returning to military matters I suggest following further action.

1.Move out our axe to escort worker. If it's detected, we tell it's an escort.

2.Meanwhile scout advances and scouts the area of Banana cities and units creating a reconnaissance 'screen' to keep them from detecting our units.

3.In 2 turns we'll have trade route with Bananas (as we have explored coast and they must've explored the river leading down south of their cap).
3a.Do we offer them open borders? I think we should
3aa.If they accept, we move in scout, to check what mil units are at their cap and see what are they capable of producing. We can move the scout in and out the same turn if we want to only check military at cap.

3ab. Do we tell them "we started to build the road, but were unaware that the trade link will be established between us"? Or just silence the fact until they run into it themselves or we attack, whichever comes first.


Also, I just realized, moving the axe up north was a huge mistake - it can only reach Tassagrad in 7 turns now.
If we hadn't done it, we could attempt an alpha strike with just one chuko, 2 axes and a scout, if Bananas dont take heed of the power graph spike some 4 turns from now.

This means, our first wave attack force will consist of 3 chukos and 2 axes as the 4th chuko wont manage it on time - it takes 4 turns to travel from Xian to Tassagrad.

It should be enough, however, provided Bananas don't make any conclusions from the power graphs.

It also means we'll be able to take Banana cap in 15-16 turns from now, whereas we could've done it in 8-9 turns.

EDIT: I mistaked, if the Bananas are unwary of our battle plans, we can take cap in 12-13 turns with 2 chukos and ax.

[Impaler[WrG]]

I like the build plan with the Gally and GreatLighthouse, GL adds 2 trade routes in all coastal cities which will be Bejing, the 4th city and the Banana southern city once we control it and the proposed Rice/River mouth site as well. Each route is a minimum of 1 commerce so were looking at 8 raw commerce in a reasonable time frame not to mention the Great People points which will accelerate our 3rd GP (second will come soon at this rate from all the wonders). I think its defiantly worth the investment. The Great Library should follow once marble is online.

Speaking of which we should begin planning the possible uses of the 2nd GP, theirs going to be a wide open field of possibilities so we must be flexible. The possible types we could get are...

Prophet - Obviously used for Temple of Solomon build which will help shore up our economy as we rapidly spread Yangism, this is actually the one I think I would like to see most. Alternatively we can pop Theology and get Christianity though I think thats a terrible move considering the alternative.

Engineer - With our insanely high Wonder production capacities it seems a waste to use an Engineer for something that takes 10 turns to build, having one in reserve to steal wonders out from under people noses is an option but theirs no real competition at this point or in the near future. Tech pooping seems best. Engineers would pop Engineering (if we have pre-req Construction) followed by Feudalism (if w have Monarchy), both of which are quite desirable. If neither of those are available Construction is the tech.

Merchant - As the distance to Vox is so great and their very survival in question the Caravan option seems way to risky to me, pooping Currency seems the best bet as it provides instant bump of minimum +1 commerce per city which we will need badly after conquest.

Scientist - If we run a Scientist specialist any time in the next 20 or so turns their will be a chance of a scientist. An Academy in Beijing would net good Science, the pop of Calendar seems a lot less desirable to me then Academy unless were in a position to exploit calendar-resources from Banana territory in addition to our own silk and even then the Academy still looks very strong to me. If we should have CoL and Drama we pop Philosophy which is IMHO useless to us.

All 4 options are very nice, we can shift probabilities based on what specialist we run, an Engineer or Scientist, as theirs no plan for a temple soon those are the only options. I think we will want to go with the Engineer to boost Hammer output (I assume BT's plan involved a continuous engineer after our pop recovers).

By the way I think we should raze the 3rd Banana city ware ever it is, were going to be looking at some very high maintenance soon and its imperative we don't strangle our economy. Courthouses should be our main goal once Banana Peel is over.

[binTravkin]

Merchant - As the distance to Vox is so great and their very survival in question the Caravan option seems way to risky to me, pooping Currency seems the best bet as it provides instant bump of minimum +1 commerce per city which we will need badly after conquest.

If we indeed pop Merchant we should do our best to obtain following:
Currency
CoL
Monarchy

and lightbulb CS with the Merchant.

As most GP give 1000b + 2*pop (scientists - 1500b + 3*pop), we should try to use them for techs of cost 1000b and more.

Engineer should therefore, as mentioned, pop Engineering though a large part of that tech would still need to be done by simple research.

If we should have CoL and Drama we pop Philosophy which is IMHO useless to us.

There can never be a religion too much.
Pacifism is a nice civic to consider after we've done our fighting and infrastructure building, but the main strength of Philosophy lies in being a prereq to some nice techs including Military Tradition.

I think we will want to go with the Engineer to boost Hammer output (I assume BT's plan involved a continuous engineer after our pop recovers).

We'll need to seriously consider our specialist strategy.
Now that we don't need another Engineer so much, rather Priest or Merchant and even Scientist is better (to build Academy), Engineer is not so good use of our workers.
The alternatives - coastal tile with output 2-0-4 and mine 1-3-0 and 0-4-0 seem to be more appropriate for whatever we need (research or production).
If we discontinue our whipping then engineer might again become feasible as 2-0-4 is worse than 0-2-3 if you've exceeded the happiness cap.

[Maniac]

Originally posted by binTravkin
Now that we don't need another Engineer so much

A free wonder never hurts I assume.

[binTravkin]

Well, it doesn't, but wasting an engineer, which can give 500h+ on a wonder which costs say 300 and you have (or can with some effort have) the resource for, aint nice.

Great Library, though, could be a good investment of Engineer.

[Chaos Theory]

Keep in mind GPs can be settled, and this early in the game they'll make quite a bit of difference, especially boosted by Representation. One settled GP will be worth the equivalent of about 10-11 points of GNP, which, IIRC, is more than 1/4 of the highest listed GNP in the Demographics screen.