Civ Choice

[Arrian]

Heh, I was looking at the old GS forum and we had like 5 civ choice threads. We came within one vote (less, actually!) of picking the Iroquois over Egypt.

...

I think we just need to suck it up and pick some leaders (1, 2, 3). I feel like I could make reasonable arguments for as many as 10 choices, but we've got to make a decision at some point. I of course reserve the right to alter my choices once we get down to the final poll (there will be a poll, I assume?) based upon further discussion. But we've gotta leave a few leaders on the cutting room floor, so to speak...

-Arrian

[Dominae]

Originally posted by DeepO
ORG is still the most powerful trait, especially on higher levels,

Sorry, I just have to pick on DeepO again...!

I play Immortal, and Organized has been a "win more" trait to me. The AIs out-expand you before it really starts to kick in, which means you must go to war to make it effective. This assumes that you can reliably wage war with a small-ish empire, something for which Organized does not help with at all.

It's definitely more powerful on the higher levels because the Upkeep/Maintenance "noose" is on tighter, but at the same time it's harder to leverage.

In this game I cannot see us really making great use of Organized unless we do some serious conquering in the early to mid-game. That's not necessarily going to happen.

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Dominae


Are you saying that Organized is good because it lets you run the most expensive Civics, which must necessarily also be the best Civics? Most of the "best" Civics (effect-wise only) are low Upkeep. I think the Spiritual no-Anarchy "tricks" are all still valid regardless of what your Upkeepk is.

It's true that tricks are still important, but less so. For instance you most of the times want 1 civic giving you 2 XP, not both of them. Vassalage is normally not preferred as it is high upkeep, while Org religion is easy to lose as it is high upkeep too. Running both Org Rel and Vassalage (both high) is only really feasible with ORG.

Now assume you want both the XP boost, as the 25% on building infrastructure... either you have to switch (SPI), or you half the costs (ORG). anything else is a serious disadvantage.

I don't want to sound like I think Asoka can't be a good choice with the SPI/ORG combination, but it think that having e.g. ARG/SPI or ARG/ORG combinations would be better in this game. SPI deminishes the return you get from ORC, and vice versa.

That's not really fair, is it?

Why not? If everyone's 1st choice is a +3, all I'd like is to add my +3 to whatever SPI choice comes first. Or a +2 if you think that's fairer.

Maybe we should change the process, and vote for our favorite traits first instead?

One track might be to limit our choices first. Put all choices in a huge poll, and let everyone pick his 9 favourites (half of the leaders). Count, and the best 9 leaders go to the next round.

Then, start the discussion again to limit these into e.g. 4 choices.

Last, make a final choice.

This is similar to pick traits first, but might be a bit more dynamic... like I said, Asoka is not my favourite, while either SPI or ORG is a near must for me

DeepO

[Arrian]

One thing: discard the AI. There is no AI here. We will not be out-expanded by opponents pumped with difficulty bonuses. ORG *does* require some expansion to be useful (aside from the cheapo lighthouses, which, while nice, aren't enough on their own to be enticing), be it peaceful or military. I agree we cannot count on this (especially if we end up on a small map/7 civs!), but I don't think we should discount it entirely.

-Arrian

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Dominae


Sorry, I just have to pick on DeepO again...!

well, thanks!

It's definitely more powerful on the higher levels because the Upkeep/Maintenance "noose" is on tighter, but at the same time it's harder to leverage.

In this game I cannot see us really making great use of Organized unless we do some serious conquering in the early to mid-game. That's not necessarily going to happen.

Dom, have you seen Trip's CIV equivalent [edit: of PTWDG I]? I'm not sure it was released with v1.52, though, so if not: please don't mention it in public

The reason is that in that game, we certainly did not get the best land. We fought one war at the point in time where the scenario starts, but we vastly outnumber, outproduce, and outcommerce everyone... we've got twice the amount of cities of the 2nd team.

If we want to go for superclose spacing, ORG can make all the difference. And superclose spacing certainly has its strengths: many scientists, no health/happy issues, and efficient use of your land. Without ORG, we'll spread out more, simply to avoid getting hammered with the civic upkeep cost. Which means vertical, instead of horizontal growth.

We might need a war to get to such extremes as the Bobian scenario, but not neccessarily so. A lot will depend on map settings, though.

DeepO

[Hot Mustard]

I'll try to get the "make your picks" train moving again:

1) Saladin
2) Mansa Musa
3) Asoka

[DeepO]

BTW, PHI might be interesting as well... if only the other teams would not be warned we get a GP

DeepO

[Arrian]

That's a good point, DeepO, about city spacing: I used fairly tight city spacing in AU100 (Washington, ORG/FIN) and it worked wonderfully. Granted, we had great land, which helped a lot.

ORG can allow you to utilize a tighter build pattern and leverage what land you can grab...

-Arrian

[Arrian]

Dom, have you seen Trip's CIV equivalent [edit: of PTWDG I]? I'm not sure it was released with v1.52, though, so if not: please don't mention it in public

??

What's this?

-Arrian

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Arrian


??

What's this?

-Arrian

So... I take it it hasn't been released yet? I thought it would have been in v1.52...

Trip made a scenario, which you can play in CIV (well, if you've got it, of course). Just try Custom Game/Scenario/ Bobian war or something like this.

The scenario starts the moment we completed the Voxodus, and RP gets attacked by ND. It has been tweaked for CIV, but is very realistic otherwise... just open it for several civs, and browse around. You'll be amazed how far ahead we were, especially in infrastructure. If only we hadn't burnt out, and globally lost interest in the game at that point in time...

DeepO

[DeepO]

That reminds me of a semi-truth when it comes to demogame warfare: the best moment to attack any team, is right after their last war ended. Not only will their empire be unbalanced, but burnout and disinterest after too long wars will make any team play weaker. In some cases, a lot weaker.

DeepO

[Dominae]

Originally posted by DeepO
One track might be to limit our choices first. Put all choices in a huge poll, and let everyone pick his 9 favourites (half of the leaders). Count, and the best 9 leaders go to the next round.

Then, start the discussion again to limit these into e.g. 4 choices.

Last, make a final choice.

Sounds great!

This is similar to pick traits first, but might be a bit more dynamic... like I said, Asoka is not my favourite, while either SPI or ORG is a near must for me.

Then when not just pick 3 of your favourite SPI or ORG leaders? Uner the 3-2-1 system, I see no reason to give preferential treatment: just vote for three SPI leaders if you really want that trait.

If there really is no advantage to your "vote last" request (i.e. it's fair), you should not care either way.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by DeepO
Trip made a scenario, which you can play in CIV (well, if you've got it, of course). Just try Custom Game/Scenario/ Bobian war or something like this.

The scenario starts the moment we completed the Voxodus, and RP gets attacked by ND. It has been tweaked for CIV, but is very realistic otherwise... just open it for several civs, and browse around. You'll be amazed how far ahead we were, especially in infrastructure. If only we hadn't burnt out, and globally lost interest in the game at that point in time...

Neat, where can I get it?!

I took me a moment to understand why you were bringing this up in our ORG discussion...are you saying there was a point in the PTWDG1 that we could have gone on a rampage - and missed the boat!?!

NOoo...

[Krill]

It was called "Battle of the Bobs".

Personally, I like it, but I would prefer to have the game start at 4000BC...

BTW, I would also be willing to start a PBEM up using that scenario set at 4000BC, if we can get Trip to edit the map for us...

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Dominae
Neat, where can I get it?!

Dom, you're a tester too, right? You should have it for sure... and I think it was released to all.

This might be a good idea for all new members too, to see where we come from.

1. open CIV
2. select SP
3. Select 'play a scenario'
4. select 'Battle of the bobs'.

I took me a moment to understand why you were bringing this up in our ORG discussion...are you saying there was a point in the PTWDG1 that we could have gone on a rampage - and missed the boat!?!

NOoo...

I haven't played it yet, but you're damn right we missed the boat. We could have taken both ND and GoW on our own with better intelligence, better planning, and better play. At least one of the 2 should have been destroyed completely given our advantage...

DeepO