Team Sarantium Diplomacy

[Kloreep]

Metal Casting does seem more useful to me. I don't like living with an IOU as the Mercenary team, but there doesn't seem a good way to avoid it. Best scenario I can come up with is that we go for HBR and they don't trade us Myst or Med as part of the deal. However, this does involve going for HBR, a military-only tech when we're already happily producing copper units and there are not yet Catapults to counter.

Also, I believe we will be forced to spread the trades out (not that spreading out the jump in score will hide it from watching teams). IIRC you cannot trade a tech to a civ along with its prerequisite? So once they get Alpha, we will need to receive Writing, Myst, and Archery on the first turn, then Alphabet and Meditation the next.

[inamirrordarkly]

I'm not sure I like the idea of having Team Sarantium dictate to us what we can or cannot do with tech once they have been traded to us, as Beta suggests when he mentions a "No Trade Clause".

[UnOrthOdOx]

I agree with you in principle, but no trade clauses are standard operations in team games and would likely break the whole deal if we didn't agree to them.

Perhaps we can ask for some compensation for the NTA?

We declare we do not expect them to return the NTA, and therefore would like to be paid for that service if they want our assurance to not trade their precious techs. This could be done via tech points for now, and make up some of that gap.

[Kloreep]

NTAs do help reduce the risk of a trade deal, so I can understand why they want it. It's bad enough that you can never be sure if another team will research your tech before you and trade it around; without NTAs, you can never be sure that Team B you're trading it to won't turn around and trade both your tech and theirs to Team C before you can get a deal with Team C for even just your own tech. And since we do have the Horde forming at least one more possible trading partner...

I personally a fine with NTAs, at least to an extent, since it does help ensure we get our own slice of the pie. I would suggest a time-out NTA - set the NTA to expire after a certain number of turns, say 30 turns after the trade is completed. This way, both teams are guaranteed some breathing room to negotiate immediate deals for their own techs with teams known now (Horde for us, who knows for Sarantium), but in the longer term each would be free to take whatever deals they can find for the techs.

[polarnomad]

Metal Casting Perhaps we could suggest that they give us writing first so that we can build a couple libraries to help pump out the 643 beakers.

I think a time limited NTA would be the best way to go, though 30 turns sounds a little long.

EDIT: When another team asks us to trade a tech included in an NTA, how do we reply?

[Kloreep]

Originally posted by polarnomad
Metal Casting Perhaps we could suggest that they give us writing first so that we can build a couple libraries to help pump out the 643 beakers.

We can't actually trade techs until they get Alphabet, so unfortunately we'll just have to wait for Alphabet.

We should definitely ask to receive some key techs at that time, though. They'll want Agriculture and IW ASAP, and we'll want Writing and probably Alphabet ASAP. Archery is certainly good to have ASAP as well.

Originally posted by polarnomad
EDIT: When another team asks us to trade a tech included in an NTA, how do we reply?

That we have the tech, but we have a NTA which will keep us from handing it over until X turns from now; if that's okay with them we'll be happy to trade, if they want it sooner we unfortunately can't accomodate them. (Which reminds me, I think we should make sure the NTA is on handing over of the tech only, trying to limit discussion or the set-up of a trade just makes things messy unless the NTA is eternal.)

[polarnomad]

I understand that Alphabet is required for tech trade to occur. I just mean that, concerning the order in which they give us the techs, it would be handy to have writing first. We are spacing the trades out to avoid too much notice from the power graph, right?

[UnOrthOdOx]

Originally posted by Kloreep
NTAs do help reduce the risk of a trade deal, so I can understand why they want it. It's bad enough that you can never be sure if another team will research your tech before you and trade it around; without NTAs, you can never be sure that Team B you're trading it to won't turn around and trade both your tech and theirs to Team C before you can get a deal with Team C for even just your own tech.

I am proud to have introduced tech whoring on this whole new level to demogames, and thus created the need for NTA's.

(history lesson for those who werent in the original team demogame: )
If there was one thing Glory Of War excelled at, it was tech whoring. Well, that and deceipt. We'ld get contacted by Team A to sell us tech for 100 gold. We would immediately contact all other teams offering to sell that tech to them for 20, of course they would all deny the offer they got from Team A in favor of ours. We buy it, sell it, make about 20 gold over and above the price we paid for it. I'm surprised it took the other teams as long as it did to catch on.

Hence, no discussion and no trade clauses have become a standard.

[UnOrthOdOx]

UnO

To start with - my apologies. I jumped the gun a bit on my last communique, and possibly may end up back in the dungeon as a result. The concern from our end has nothing to do with Team Merc or the proposed trade per se; it is whether we will have copper after having researched BW. The Horde are about half way to completing HBR, and hence our concern. If you have knoweldge of copper in our territory that will our allay our concerns, that would help immensely. No need to be precise about it, just enough to take the weight off our minds.

Three turns will tell, but in the meantime I would like to get the deal going. We have both agreed to the non-disclosure clauses. My team is also not concerned regarding the actual trade itself; they agree that it should happen asap when possible.

That leaves the deal as we discussed earlier as one possibility:

Team Sarantium supplies to Team Mercenary:

Writing (171)
Alpha (429)
Mysticism (71)
Archery (85)
Meditation (114)

TOTAL:870

In return, Team mercenary supplies to Team Sarantium:

Agriculture (85)
Iron Working (286)

TOTAL: 371

Difference is 500.

So, techs you would research. We propose Horse Back Riding (357), and you would owe us some credits, or Metal Casting (643), and we would owe you.

Or secondly, if we do need to research IW for defensive purposes:

Team Sarantium supplies to Team Mercenary:

Mysticism, Archery, and Meditation - total 270

Team Mercenary to supply to Team Sarantium:

Agriculture: 85

Writing and Alphabet to research: 600

Scenario A: Sarantium researches Writing and Alphabet after IW; we would total 870, and Team Mercenary 85, leaving a difference of 785 tech points. Again, HBR is 357 and Metal Casting 643. Masonry - which we both still need, is 114.

Scenario B: Team Mercenary researches Writing and Alphabet, so you total 685 to our 270, a difference of 415. We will do HBR and Masonry, and you owe us a few tech points.

Sorry for the glitch (which may not be) regarding IW. I am to blame for that. (con and E_T want you to know that. )But the basics of the deal still make sense, and we would like your input as to what works for Team Mercenary. If you have another proposal, please by all means table it.

Also, we are wondering about the mechanics of tech trading in Civ4 pbem. Can writing and alphabet be traded/gifted to a team in one turn, given that one tech is pre-requesite for the other, or does it need two turns? We are not sure.

An unrelated point, yet something that may benefit both our civs: We have built the city of Ocala on the river that runs through to Fort Sierra, but it did not establish a trade route with your team. Not sure what is up; it may be that Fort Sierra is not connected to your capital. A trade route between us would be good for both teams. Any thoughts?

Thanks, and regards, Beta.

I can't read all that right now.

[Kloreep]

So basically, they are now considering IW first should they lack copper in their territory.

In that scenario, I'd say we should go for Writing + Alphabet.

Re: the river trade route, might as well say that Fort Sierra is not connected since they seem to have figured it out. I don't think we have surplus resources to trade at the moment, but we could get excess pigs and gems farther down the road from our next city site, and later from a site on the plains hills to the east.

[UnOrthOdOx]

The Alphabet - Writing thing will take 2 turns to trade, I can answer that.

We are not connected now in Fort Sierra. We will be eventually, and could be relatively soon.

Should we offer that source of copper in exchange for some tech points? Perhaps this offer would even dissuade their desire to research IW?

Do we want to tell them, no, we know of no sources on what we've seen of their land?

[Kloreep]

Good point, I completely forgot we have 2 sources of copper. I guess we could have our cities hooked up about 12 turns after the second worker finishes (so about 16 turns in total). I'd say we should offer it as a backup, albeit in exchange for something if we can get that. An extra happy face would be great if they have a duplicate luxury, though I don't know how likely that is at this stage of the game. That said, convincing them to trade with us for IW benefits us in the end (albeit them as well, as long as it does not bring about the military consequences they fear). So I think we should be willing to give them a (temporarily) cheap supply.

That said, I think we should definitely get a border agreement out of them before agreeing to supply them with a military resource.

I wouldn't give up free info on their land. Besides, we really can't offer anything conclusive.

[UnOrthOdOx]

They said something about knowing in 3 turns I think. I took that to mean time to complete Bronze.

The Horde are about half way to completing HBR, and hence our concern.

What a gem that bit of info is:

1. We know of no other ponies than the ones we're making a grab for, right?

2. It is most likely Sarantium is not supposed to discuss the Horde's tech situation. If the Horde found out they are breaking such simple agreements already...it could be good for business...

[Kloreep]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
They said something about knowing in 3 turns I think. I took that to mean time to complete Bronze.

Yeah, I assume so too.

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
What a gem that bit of info is:

1. We know of no other ponies than the ones we're making a grab for, right?

The Horde does have some to their west. Look just right of the message pop-up here.

And there's always the possibility that they have ponies near their capitol. The Horde's Creative borders had already expanded twice like ours when we started scouting them, so there are a fair number of dark tiles around their capital.

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
2. It is most likely Sarantium is not supposed to discuss the Horde's tech situation. If the Horde found out they are breaking such simple agreements already...it could be good for business...

Surely you don't mean we're going to carry out an evil plan.

I'm not sure, though... I believe the exact legalese used in this situation was that we would not reveal Sarantium's tech situation, so we're fine there. But would this fall under confidence of negotiations in general?

[UnOrthOdOx]

Hi UnO

Thanks for your recent reply. Understood about the busy times, sorry to hear about the accidents, and hope all goes well with the newest family addition.

Exchanging screen shots sounds OK to us. The only stipulation we ask is that the screenshot not be traded to other teams. We commit to the same stipulation.

Once we have traded screen shots we can work out a mutually agreeable border arrangement.

Now, to technology. We have just finished BW, and unfortunatley we do not have copper. As indicated earlier, we need to research iron working sooner than later. I trust you can understand this.

Ok, the tech deal. We have agreed in principle on the following:

Sarantium to provide to Team Mercenary:

Mysticism, Archery, Meditation - total 270

Team Mercenary to Provide:

Agriculture: 85

Two options follow. We are open to either.

Option A: we research Writing and Alphabet after IW, we would total 870, and the Mercs 85. You would need to make up 785 tech points. HBR is 357 and Metal Casting 643. Masonry - which we both still need, is 114.

Option B: you research Writing and Alphabet, and would total 685 to our 270, a difference of 415. We will do HBR and Masonry, and you would owe us a few tech points.

(note - my research points may be off a bit - they were from a few turns ago)

There may be a third option, depending upon (i) your ability to trade copper via a trade route in the near future, or (ii) your ability to indicate an available iron source in Sarantium territory. Both of these could be offset by a tech point credit, say 100.

We are available to discuss at your convenience, and now that the copper situation is known, we can finalize the deal. Looking forward to hearing from you.

Regards... Beta.

I will update our world map this evening in preparation for the screenshot exchange.

What is the projection on connecting our trade network?

I'm leaning towards researching writing and alphabet ourselves if they insist on going after iron. This would open trades with the Horde as well.