Vox Embassy

[Chaos Theory]

Spearies can support CKNs against elephants adequately. If we were to go for another unit, it would have to be a longbowman (only better in a city), maceman (some distance off), or pikeman. Nothing to fret about.

[N35t0r]

Yeah, spears can fight ellies almost evenly, and are ages cheaper. Offensively, getting a chuko or two to combat 2 (or drill 2) + formation will be able to smash anything they put up in the field.

[binTravkin]

Their problem is resources, they don't have bronze and are unlikely to have founded their 2nd city near iron, so we'll need to help them anyway, sooner or later.

[PJayTycy]

According to GS' comments, they moved their second city to the north. Closer to Banana and ourselves, probably in the hopes of making military support easier.

[binTravkin]

I noticed a nice spot there, which has elephants, cows and something else, is coastal but has neither iron nor bronze.
Still, we could get there in time.

[PJayTycy]

Originally posted by Impaler[WrG]
I think our stance should be magnanimous, we ask only that Vox withdraw any claims on our ability to tech trade as we see fit (if they have any brains at all they will not make a demand that they have no power to enforce). We won't ask for any kind of apology from Jon and should Don be more diplomatic and astute we will express our pleasure in having him as Diplomat and try to marginalize JM while promoting Don. Successfully sealing an IronWorking gifting to Vox could be just the trophy necessary to establish Don as diplomat and enhance the pro-AC faction within Vox. Should be prove sufficiently cooperative I'd like to get that inked.

To review my proposal is that we and Vox make mutually agree to the following plan. Vox will switch its current research away from Iron Working preferably to a tech we lack and are not currently pursuing or planning to pursue (most likely Monarchy but Vox's choice). AC will pledge to gift iron working to Vox slightly before the point they would originally have researched it so that no score analysis could decisively reveal our involvement. In exchange Vox will pledge to gift us Horse Back riding when we request it. The secondary tech Vox switches to will be its to keep or trade as its sees fit and no additional trades, actions or relations will be required by either side. AC dose NOT pledge to go to war with Storm or guarantee the safety of Vox at this point in time.

Despite AC's refusal to decisively commit ourselves at this time to open alliance with Vox we are interested in cultivating this as a mid to long term possibility. The framework we envision is as follows, should AC decide to declare on Strom then AC would immediately seek to negotiate a more binding alliance with Vox which would involve tech trading and mutual military coordination, attack and defense with the goal of defending Vox and conquering Storm. Vox maintaining the confidentiality of all past and future negotiations and communications would be a necessary pre-requisite of this agreement. Should Strom be defeated the continent will then be divided along lines generous to AC but providing for Vox to expand significantly, in exchange Vox will receive tech assistance and will be a vassal state to AC following its lead in foreign affairs and supporting AC in Victory as the Junior partner in a permanent alliance.

Thats roughly the text I would like to present to Don can I get a consensus on this proposal and commitment that we would sign our half. Presenting the agreement pre-ratified by our team should help speed things up. I feel the proposal keeps our long term options open, runs no risk of souring our Storm relationship while giving Vox modest but real assistance in their struggle to stay alive and builds trust between us and Vox.

While my previous messages were negative about "what's in it for Vox?", ofcourse I support this agreement if you want to present it to Vox.

We should go forward with Vox-diplomacy now. I don't think anybody was against gifting IW if could be done covertly.

If you chat with them, could you try to find out the whereabouts of their second city? So we get a better idea about what's possible in terms of military help from AC / Banana.

If their second city is really on the isthmus, we could prepare a ship with chukonus to capture Bananas second city and move them onwards to Vox's second city after the capturing. This sea-expedition will probably have to be sent first, but to micro-manage it, we will need to know the whereabouts of Vox' second city (the closer to banana, the better ofcourse).

[binTravkin]

I'd say propose, but keep out the coquer GS and vassal part for now.

[ForesterSOF]

Go for it

[Impaler[WrG]]

I had a fence mending secion with Donegal of team Vox, he was considerably more diplomatic the Jon. His position wasn't much different, being dis-heartened over our trading with Storm. He seemed more reseptive to the Iron gifting proposal though he clearly wanted more. He said Vox would be producing Horse archers in the near future to combat Storm Skirmishers and reclaim their country side, I'm positive the second city was built on or adjacent to horses. I think theirs a about a 50-50 chance of their accepting the gift which I said they can accept anytime before they would otherwise research it which is a whooping 20 turns. I said we could cut off 3 turns and gift in 17 which wont arouse any suspicions.

FULL LOG


Donegeal: Hello. I just got your message.
Impaler[WrG]: Hey
Impaler[WrG]: just in time too I was about to go
Impaler[WrG]: dont have a lot of time either
Donegeal: I can be here as long as my 3 month old is sleeping...
Impaler[WrG]: ok sounds good
Donegeal: So, like I said, I'm not very good at IRC.
Impaler[WrG]: so did Jon send you a full text of our chat or sumary?
Donegeal: Can you log?
Impaler[WrG]: yea I'll keep a log
Donegeal: The sumary was just that it didn't go well and he got mad and wasn't diplomatic
Donegeal: So you want to justget right down to things?
Impaler[WrG]: ok well if you like I can send you that log as well along with ours here, I'll just sumarize what was said for now
Donegeal: ok
Impaler[WrG]: Jon was uset that were not yet willing to trade openly with Vox but are trading with Strom
Donegeal: Oh... I didn't know you were actually trading with them.
Donegeal: Can't say I don't blame him for being upset.
Impaler[WrG]: yes they have offered us atractive trades and we see no reason to deney ourselves the advantages their
Donegeal: Care to elaborate on what they are offering?
Impaler[WrG]: I'd rather I get aproval from my team first
Impaler[WrG]: needless to say their things Vox cant offer us
Impaler[WrG]: We haven't signed any kind of aliance with them though and would rather see them defeated in the long run
Donegeal: Of course not. But there are things Vox can offer that GS cannot. One being a game long debt.
Impaler[WrG]: yes were hoping that will be the case
Donegeal: I have gotte permission to offer you guys our vote in a UN election. Try getting that from GS.
Impaler[WrG]: its simply a matter of not getting ourselves into something untill were very sure we will succeed
Donegeal: Hesitation in this instance can prove just as fatal waiting.
Impaler[WrG]: We want the combined power of our two forces to decicivly win before we commit ourselves
Donegeal: Ok, you might not have signed anything, but that's an alliance.
Impaler[WrG]: Yes weve considered that but all our intell says that Strom wont try to finish you off untill they have Cats
Donegeal: They probably can't do it until then. Too much culture in Voice.
Donegeal: They recently attacked us with all their forces in our land and lost to a single archer.
Impaler[WrG]: Yes I heard, you guys are building another city
Donegeal: Should be built already. I haven't seen screens yet.
Donegeal: We will have horses for our Horse Archers.
Donegeal: With Iron, the fight against GS will be an even fight.
Donegeal: ..or a fair fight. Nothing like taking on a UU without metal and wining...
Impaler[WrG]: well I think AC will reach a point soon in the next 10 turns ware we will either decicivly deside to commit ourselves to a war against Storm or not as I've said before the stronger yall are the liklier it is to happen
Donegeal: The stronger we are? you mean Vox?
Impaler[WrG]: Yes to get them in a two front vice
Donegeal: Well withing 10 turns we should have two horse archers. We could also be in position to start building swords/ax/spear
Donegeal: with IW that is.
Donegeal: so, you find yourselves in a powerful position. You hold our key to survival.
Impaler[WrG]: but your not assured of the presense of Iron in your lands
Donegeal: Sure... but almost. This map was tweaked to be fair. We have no copper. I am 99% sure we will have Iron.
Impaler[WrG]: We dont want Storm tipped off in any way that were colaborating which is why we cant perform the trade as you proposed it
Donegeal: Then your not thinking.
Impaler[WrG]: were currently the only ones with Alphabet and they could easily see from your tech score that you didnt research it yourselves
Donegeal: hut
Impaler[WrG]: whats your Iron ETA
Donegeal: 20
Impaler[WrG]: yea thats way to long
Donegeal: Yep, I know. Like I said, for a fair fight, we need IW from you guys.
Impaler[WrG]: Storm will be producing Catapults likly before that point
Impaler[WrG]: but you see how that completly reveals our aliance and puts us basicaly at war with Storm with only a modest chance of actualy assisting you
Donegeal: I know that GS have told you guys that we are doomed, but that is not the case if we have a metal.
Impaler[WrG]: keeping them in the dark would be wiser
Donegeal: Then you also see how the same could be said of going to war with us.
Donegeal: especially if you guys are already trading with them.
Impaler[WrG]: you mean AC and GS going to war?
Donegeal: No... about you guys going to war with us. Because that is essentially what this would be about.
Impaler[WrG]: who ever said we were going to war with you?? Is that what Jon thinks?
Donegeal: No, it's not something where we will declare war if you don't trade, it's more like... like it's you siding with our enemies.
Donegeal: No, Jon doesn't think that, but it feels like it
Impaler[WrG]: And metals arnt going to save you from Storm once they have catapults then can kill swordsman with Axmen, use Catapults to take down culture and over power you with their productivity
Impaler[WrG]: It may help you hand on longer but its not a Panacea
Donegeal: Yes, it would be a struggle, but if you do trade with us it will be very expensive for them and they may consider a truce.
Donegeal: We are not fighting for victory, we are fighting for survival.
Impaler[WrG]: perhaps a temporary truce but they will come after you again when they get some more tech
Impaler[WrG]: well our recomendation is as follows
Impaler[WrG]: To review my proposal is that we and Vox make mutually agree to the following plan. Vox will switch its current research away from Iron Working preferably to a tech we lack and are not currently pursuing or planning to pursue (most likely Monarchy but Vox's choice). AC will pledge to gift iron working to Vox slightly before the point they would originally have researched it so that no score analysi
Impaler[WrG]: s could decisively reveal our involvement. In exchange Vox will pledge to gift us Horse Back riding when we request it. The secondary tech Vox switches to will be its to keep or trade as its sees fit and no additional trades, actions or relations will be required by either side. AC dose NOT pledge to go to war with Storm or guarantee the safety of Vox at this point in time.
Donegeal: I don't see anything wrong with that. Although the hard part would be waiting for IW.
Donegeal: Like I said, a goodie hut can explain away anything.
Impaler[WrG]: Now I should point out that switching from Iron is realy beyond the point ware Strom will kill you anyways
Donegeal: duh.
Donegeal: Not like we have much choice...
Donegeal: We have to trust you.
Impaler[WrG]: so it dosn't really weaken you in any way
Impaler[WrG]: likewize were going to need to see you guys live to get HBR
Impaler[WrG]: You want have to send us HBR untill after the IW gift by the way
Donegeal: You can have the techs at anytime you want them.
Impaler[WrG]: were just getting an IOU for HBR which we will cash in when we see fit
Donegeal:
Impaler[WrG]: again this is all to keep others from seeing obvious trading in our tech scores
Donegeal: SUre... but like I said, the sooner we get IW the happier and easier of a sell to my team it is.
Impaler[WrG]: Well your ETA is 20 turns so we can do it in 17 turns hows that sound
Impaler[WrG]: that should be small enough to not alert any suspicions
Donegeal: ....SO you realize all the stuff your asking for a mere 3 urns?
Donegeal: here... send a unit down this way and tell us if you see any Iron around our land.
Impaler[WrG]: yes but durring that time you will be working towards another tech that you will get ~20 turns faster then normal
Donegeal: or... what would an eta for that be?
Donegeal: Goodie hut... we do have scouts.
Impaler[WrG]: well we have a scout off on the western coast of the continent its just saw some Iron in no mans land but its to the west of Storm
Impaler[WrG]: it will be turning east as it hugs the south and could reach your territory soon
Donegeal: hmmm.... darn. What about a hut? YOu haven't said anything about that.
Impaler[WrG]: nope havent found any in ages
Impaler[WrG]: probably none left
Donegeal: Yeah... I know that they are probaly all gone, but what I meant is what about explaining away the tech due to a hut.
Impaler[WrG]: If I was Storm I would not buy it
Donegeal: based on what?
Impaler[WrG]: incredibly unlikly in its own right and our existence with Alphabet is so suspicious
Donegeal: But there is no way that it could be impossible.
Impaler[WrG]: they have been rather paranoid with us you know
Donegeal: GS is ALWAYS that way. Frankly I'm quiet suprized they have been so active with you.
Impaler[WrG]: well its taken a lot of work on my part
Impaler[WrG]: Well you have our offer and our position, I know its less then you hoped for but I'm hoping we can build on this
Donegeal: I see. YOu realize that I feel that reflects badly on you. It would seem that you have been putting much more effert into GS than Vox and have done so from the beging.
Impaler[WrG]: Their the much strong of the two and the one that the most unknown, they still have significant freedom of action politicaly, economicaly and militarily. Vox is constrained to little more then self defence
Donegeal: So you want the aggressor as an ally
Impaler[WrG]: so we need to devote more time to seeing 'what makes them tick' cause their a potential threat, the old keep your enemies close idea
Donegeal: hahahahahahahahaha
Donegeal: You wanna know what make GS tick?
Donegeal: I'll tell you...
Donegeal: It's Micromanagement.
Donegeal: They are the best MM team in the game.
Impaler[WrG]: Then it seems we have that in common, we do a lot of micro as well
Donegeal: Yes, you guys are some really good people on your team but GS is the best.
Donegeal: Their potential threat is by far higher than Vox
Donegeal: So yea, I'm admitting that GS has better players on their team than VOx, but MM is not everything.
Donegeal: In these DGs, the MOST important thing is relationships.
Impaler[WrG]: well like I said earlier is it an official position of Vox that you 'demand' we not trade with Storm as Jon said or was he basicaly just mad, AC can not coperate with that desire
Donegeal: No... he was just mad.
Impaler[WrG]: ok good, likewize we dont ask for any restrictions on who you trade with
Impaler[WrG]: ok I have about 10 minutes left to talk
Impaler[WrG]: Anything else you want to go over?
Donegeal: YOu want to give a worker or two to go alongwith IW?
Impaler[WrG]: did you lose your first worker?
Donegeal: no. We have lost two warriors and a scout to GS.
Impaler[WrG]: I figured it would be hold up in your capitol for the last few thousand years
Donegeal: Any way... my email is dongeal@yahoo.com if you want to send me the logs. Otherwise just PM them to me.
Impaler[WrG]: Ok if Vox desides to take us up on the offer give us the word
Donegeal: We would be much more inclind for this if you started moving your Scout towards our lands.
Impaler[WrG]: I'f we do deside to war with Storm we will seek some more binding aliances
Impaler[WrG]: Perhaps even cordinating military movments
Donegeal: If you go to war with GS, I can garuntee our support.
Donegeal: Baby's crying. Talk to you later?
Impaler[WrG]: good, we feel that the strength of your support and its reliability will be critical in making the desision
Impaler[WrG]: later

[binTravkin]

Excellent initiative Impaler!

I'd really want to help out Vox earlier.
It might mean some pushing on GS tho, to reveal their plans about Construction.

[PJayTycy]

Our scout could reach the south-west of Vox-culture in about 8 turns. However, we will be trapped there and won't be able to see too far into Vox' lands.

To send a new scout from our core to the north of Vox' land will probably take longer than 17 turns.



BTW, for obscuring our gift to Vox, it's not good if Vox starts researching small techs. GS will be able to see Vox' techs too, so 3 small techs + iron working in 17 turns will be as obvious as gifting iron working right now.

They should concentrate fully on production / food / money and not put any gold into research for about 10 turns. I think they'll be able to use that gold in a war.

[binTravkin]

We could declare war on Vox and go scouting, then sign truce

[binTravkin]

Indeed, they should simply stockpile the gold.
Or ift hey dont want, research something that takes a LOT.

[PJayTycy]

hmm, I thought that was forbidden, but it seems not :

from the rules
The use of a fake war for the purpose of mutually gaining experienced units, or for the purpose of razing a city no longer desired by its owner. This means, you may not diplomatically invite another team to declare war on you for the above illicit purposes. Certainly you can trick a team into razing a city you don't want, or into attacking you with poor units to train your units, but it must not be agreed upon by both teams. Fake wars for other purposes ARE permitted, and are not distinguished from actual wars by game rules. If you have any questions about a potential war, please consult the admins. However, the general rule is that they are permitted except for two very specific circumstances.

[Impaler[WrG]]

If you guys are online lets jump on IRC and have a planning session.