What happens after the war?

[Velociryx]

Ennet, previous testing indicated that the first and second city would have been significantly faster (4-5t) but the third city would lag (not that I consider the third city nearly as important in any case, so I don't see it as a big deal...Furs city is only important as Wines and FP2 begin to approach the cap...till then, it's more a luxury than a necessity. Anyway...that's so last week... (I am SERIOUSLY excited at this latest version of the plan!)

Ultimately, I agree that we need three workers, but I'm not convinced of the timing. The first, best thing we can do is spare no expense in getting Wines and FP two settled and with a farm each (to boost growth). IMO, everything else is gravy, so I would push hard for no third worker till after FP2 goes up. Just swapping the order of the FP2 Settler and the Worker should clear the problem up tho (city founding and turns to grow is, IMO, more important than the commerce boost, esp. since our overriding goal should be Vox--with the commerce as a means to that end.

-=Vel=-

[Blake]

A 3rd worker can definitely be gainfully employed form the day he is trained until the end of enternity (our expansion prospects are almost limitless).
For example, every 5 turns, he builds a cottage which gets worked. This brings in what i'll call +3gpt - it's immedaitely +2gpt, but after 10 turns it's +3gpt, and a bit later it's +4gpt and finally +5gpt (even +8gpt, if it goes long enough).

So the worker is an investment, which costs 60h, and spawns a new permament +3cpt stream every 5 turns.

The settler requires a garrison so costs 125h total - twice as much as a worker, once founded, he starts off with +3fpt +2cpt income, increasing by +1fpt +1cpt every ~5 turns (growth), with worker time it's +3cpt each growth.

I believe it's better to get the worker first because he costs half as much, but with some clever use of 2 workers we can squeak by - we'll lack either a good road network or will be working unimproved floodplains for quite a while.

The order of FP2 Settler and FP2 Worker is obviously something of a tradeoff... FP2 doesn't have the insta-commerce of a wines on river. The worker is definitely a MUCH stronger commerce option, settler is a bit stronger in the production department.

Without the 3rd worker (b4 second settler) we have just enough worker time to build a farm for both FP cities and a little roading - that means that both cities are obviously working unworked floodplains for quite a long time.
If we end up training a few more military units, it wont matter nearly so much, as the workers will be able to better keep up.

[Arrian]

Fair enough.

Incidently, a change in my title has alerted me to the fact that this is my 10,008th "on topic" post on Apolyton. That's a big number. Throw in my heavy off-topic posting and it's pretty scary.

-Arrian

[Velociryx]

Well, ultimately it's a bit of a balancing act...I mean, even if we aren't going to PRESS the war with Vox until Catapults, we're still "at war" and I fear that worker over settler will tip us too far down the expansion path in the face of an enemy (or perhaps two) who may hit us with some surprises. If for no other reason than safety and suriety (which is what put us on this path to begin with), it seems that FP2 before the 3rd worker is the play of choice. Less commerce gains, to be sure, but for the immediacy, commerce is a means to an end (ridding ourselves of Vox) and not the end itself. Playing to commerce (worker before FP2) certainly helps us in terms of investment payoff (worker gaining better returns), but at some point before we expand indefinitely, we're going to have to pause in that long enough to build Catapults and attackers and go finish Vox. To that end, the city is our best friend, and the sooner the city is founded, the better shape it's in to actually contribute to the war effort (and we're still making more commerce than we would have been without the city at all, so we're ahead of the game--even moreso thanks to the farm).

I also don't think that a straight hammer comparison (worker vs. city + garrison) tells the full story here (I find myself saying that a lot...LOL). Yes, the city costs twice as much. True that it brings in a lower rate of return for the investment. It also cranks out military units (or will, once it grows to "critical mass" size, extends LOS for us (borders), and does a whole host of things that our third worker simply cannot do, including giving us a bigger operating area and more robust production suite....but it needs time to do that....given the current game environment, it's my belief that the benefits of the city sooner outweigh the benefits of a couple of cottages/road tiles in that same timeframe. If we were at peace or in isolation, obviously my opinion would be reversed, but those conditions do not define where we are in the here and now. I think it can also be said that our city will be gainfully employed from the turn of its founding to eternity, and under the circumstances on the board, I'd feel infinitely more comfortable having another garrisoned city before that third worker.

And to Arrian...

-=Vel=-

[Krill]

Arrian, you Spammer

[Cort Haus]

Arrian



The avatar comes into season in a few weeks too.

[Hot Mustard]

We have a new god.

I expect I'll cross a boundary during this game as well.

[Arrian]

Heh. Yeah, Grog just really likes Christmas, I guess... My laziness knows no bounds.

So, yeah, anyway... 2nd worker for sure, 3rd worker timing more questionable, depending on the military situation. Ok?

Given that no plan survives contact with the enemy, I find that planning (step by step builds, etc, not general planning) too far out in advance is often a waste of time & effort (I'm thinking of the PTWDGII here), because you end up having to revise on the fly anyway.

-Arrian

[Mudhut]

Originally posted by Blake

Okay in terms of accelerating Wines...
He can build 2 roads, cutting 1 turn off movement (we don't need a road all the way, because the settler is 2 move and river crossings and such...
Or he could run over, part-building the road to avoid wasting worker turns, and have a shiny new farm waiting for Wines right as it gets founded, then go back and finish the road.

Originally posted by Blake

Worker 2 is blue link.
He would move STRAIGHT to the desert hill and build the road on it, then hop down onto the floodplain, and build the farm in time to minimize wines time to grow to size 4 (since there's the 3 food slack)

Just thought I should check what the current plan is re: the second worker? Because we can't pre-build a farm to be ready for Wines as soon as it is started. You can't build a farm outside of cultural borders, and there is no existing culturally-owned fp tile that is accessible by wines... is there?

[Blake]

Cultural border expansion (EotS borders will include one Wines floodplain). I think it should expand just in time but if I'm a little off he'll just spend more time building a road. If he completes 2 road tiles it means Wines is founded 1 turn earlier.

[Mudhut]

Ah. Sweet. Should have known better than to doubt the master

[DeepO]

This is great stuff! (well, congrats to you Arrian, but I was talking about the new plans )

One thing, Blake and Vel: for those of us with little time, this is hellish to follow... Once in a while, could you perhaps make a summary post of at most 2 paragraphs long, detailing the current plan? It would help us enormously!

3 workers before a second settler... and we're already stuffed with military units too. This sounds like an opening game the name GS worthy

DeepO

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Mudhut
Ah. Sweet. Should have known better than to doubt the master

Can't agree with you there. It's only because of the debate that plans become better. We need the intellectual challenge in our team, if only because that makes playing a game over the course of 2 years fun.

DeepO

[Mudhut]

Originally posted by DeepO

One thing, Blake and Vel: for those of us with little time, this is hellish to follow... Once in a while, could you perhaps make a summary post of at most 2 paragraphs long, detailing the current plan? It would help us enormously!

DeepO

Well I CAN agree with you there - this would be a great idea! Blake/Vel, this would be great if you could spare the time.

[Blake]

How about I add a strategic overview to the Forum Guide?