Gathering Storm

[GeoModder]

Be sure to include a little medititation thread in it... I know you'll need it.

[DeepO]

I'm not going to go over this point by point. I think it's a valid and useful discussion, though, so allow me to continue a bit... the least it can do is to further understand each other.

Originally posted by Enigma_Nova At least other people being Good or Calm doesn't annoy me as much as other people being idiots.

Personally, this goes straight against my own principles. You more or less choose whether you are good/evil, but you are born as an idiot or not. You can't be blamed for something you did not choose for, which means you're automatically forgiven.

Further, in making 'idiotic' choices you get the opportunity to learn from them, and to better yourself. As long as one is willing to learn from them, making mistakes can only be encouraged, however idiotic they might seem.

I like being an idiot from time to time, however feeling idiotic certainly is one of the best motivations I've got to learn from my mistakes.

I see. Will there be sufficient spam threads in the GS forum to make up for what would be lost from public posting?

We don't call it spamming, we call it a strategic discussion. And yes, you do not need to worry over postcount if you are willing to be active in GS. While being a turnplayer, I 'scored' something like 5000 posts a year, and I can savely say 99% of those were on topic, and constructive.

Spam threads in itself, simply for the 'fun' of it? No... there were maybe 10 true spam threads in GS over the 26 months PTWDG ran. Spam threads being off-topic ones, e.g. on birthdays, important events (marriage, graduation of a member), etc. You can't troll these... but you won't have time to troll anyway if you want to be active on the strategy discussions.

Besides, Don't ignore that I'm obcessive about knowing how to play the game. Expressive teams are always Friendly teams, and for some strange reason Friendly teams insist that even the n00bier, more stupid or more casual players get equal say -
probably because friendly people don't have the heart to say 'no'.

E_N, hold on a minute. If I read you right, you're telling us to refuse you into GS: as you haven't played a demogame yet, you are by definition the most newbie player of all.

Something I can't agree with in the slightest is the elitist stance you're taking. GS welcomes, and has always welcomed newbie players, and it was not because we don't dare to say no. Our 'quality' if you want to call it like that does not come from some strategy 'ringers' (BTW: Beta, was that your term?) or beta testers, no, it came from our diversity. Sometimes it's good for an expert player that he needs to explain his line of thought to someone who is less active, or less good at Civ, you can't imagine how many 'simple' things there are to lose sight off. Who of the two is more important, the expert or the newbie? I say both are equally critical. You seem to say the newbie is useless, and a burden.

Meh, seems a sensible rule by me and I'm fine with it-
up until the point when we don't have a solid party line.
Just know that there will be much internal complaining on my part if you do something I strongly disagree with.

This is one part of it: whether you agree or not, you don't give the slightest idea of objecting in public.

However, that was not the important part in last game: all our decisions were reached by concensus. Not posting in public had nothing to do with objecting the official team communication, it had all to do with being misunderstood, or getting involved in flamewars on topics completely unrelated to the official line. Many times, single members damaged the team image, on something which wasn't even discussed in our forum (yet). There was no official line...

So, shutting up is the only logical conclusion you can make. And believe me, everyone was more or less lead to the same conclusion by his own personal experiences. As a turnplayer, the times I had to warn members not to take the public postings further because of risk of flames were very exceptional, I think I did it twice or so in over a year. Never was it taken the wrong way. And myself, I must have made at least 10 mistakes during that time, where my own posts were reason enough for apologies to my team, sometimes to the one I replied to in public.

Oh, I add to it. It's just not obvious that openness, honesty and humor balance out the shock value.

If I'm allowed to be open, this is one of your main selling points. I wouldn't even consider white-balling you if I didn't think there is balance in who you are, and that good-natured over-enthousiastism leads to what you call shock value.

The problem is: this is a demogame.

Honesty:
In public, there is no place for honesty, I'm afraid. If you are going to attack someone, you surely don't want to tick him off half a year before invasion: there's good chance he'd invade you first, and bring friends. Similarly, good friends you can't really acknowledge in the open either, he might not like it, and you show your intentions to your enemies (or lesser friends) too. Add to that that there is so much deception going on, from teams who have a concerted propaganda agenda and are ruthless in pursuing it, that there is no place for honesty at all in demogames.

If you are honest in the public forum, you are an idiot. Which again makes me one, as I more then once broke this rule.

Openness:
Well, basically the same, as the above. The same applies: there is no room for openness in demogames, at least not in the public. As an ambassador to other teams, you might be able to be more open, but we tried that and it didn't really work very well. In private, openness is of course appreciated.

humor:
This is the worst of the three. Misunderstandings from 'funny' comments were what did it for us. Some of us left wrong impressions while trying to joke, other times we felt deeply offended by what was posted by others. It's already hard enough to convey a dry, bland, meaningfull message in an forum post, let alone try to tell a joke which is appreciated by all the different cultures present.

In demogames, one misunderstanding can spoil months if not years of team interaction, so obviously mindless humor is strongly discouraged. When it's toughtfull, in good taste, and as far from trolling as possible it can only add to the positive vibe. That's extremely hard to do, I can't recall a single PTWDG member who has such a good-natured humor he can't be misunderstood.

While you probably won't give me orders to do such, I have faith in my ability to turn people against each-other rather than just against us.

Sadly, that's a skill we are not interested in at all. People who try to incite war are quickly branded as puppetmasters. It's the arrogance of someone thinking he can talk those 'idiots' into whatever he desires which is perceived as so negative. The moment a team like this is discovered, the other teams get informed pretty quickly... a bit too quickly sometimes

You will be hurt, it's part of the learning experience. If you're not prepared to have theories smashed, feelings hurt, expectations unmet, efforts wasted and personality changed, then you're not ready to grow.
I'm sure as hell ready. I expect to have personal challenges as part of this game - and I would demand it. If I can't leave this game knowing that I have improved or changed, then this game was nothing more than a passing diversion.

Oh, no worries, you will need to grow

For me, the things I've learned the most about in GS is not about Civ as a strategy game, but had all to do with human interaction. That was my biggest personal challenge, and it will continue to be one. And it sure as hell will be yours too...

The only advice I can give is to take it easy in the beginning, as there is no undo button, and no running away either. Already, on this forum, you're creating an image which shines onto GS as you're an official candidate here. You're currently doing things which might harm your future GS-membership, and the team. Now, you might not be aware of it, but you certainly seem willing to learn... so learn from my mistakes, and be extremely careful until you've got a good feeling of how exactly singular posts are influencing the team's image.

Who knows, you might even become minister of diplomacy one day. But that job requires a large responsibility, and a good track record... and that track record isn't decided by a mod or a stupid rule, it's judged by all the people you are currently leaving first impressions on.

Oh, they will. If feeling strong emotions about the game will make us work harder, then I'll try to inspire such emotions - even if you consider it trolling.

strong emotions is one thing, but personal attacks (of the kind where you think you've got to call me a c*** to get my attention) will never win me over to your side. Good arguments will. I'm direct myself, I like opposing views as it gives me something to reason against, and I'm not at all hesitant to take your idea and run with it if you can convince me it's better. I'll be your biggest fan.

Being vocal and critical is not even close to getting personal, most of the times personal attacks appear when good arguments disappear.

Got it. When one of us talks, that's not us talking, that's a part of GS talking. And if you impersonate someone and make **** on their behalf, then they've got the right to smash your face for it.

Well... this is the thing: in GS, there was no censorship, only self-censorship. I'm not going to smash you in the face, I'm asking if you've got the responsibility to smash yourself in the face. I'm not going to babysit you, and no-one in GS will.

I am the Team. If I hurt the team, then I hurt me. There is no separation of self from team, for as long as we have a reason to form a team in the first place.
... At least, that's how we make it seem to others while we tear each-other up like the rabid dogs we are.

While a bit extreme, there is some part in here I like. One thing, though, no tearing up I'm afraid. GS is concensus driven: after debate, nearly all the times everyone agreed on the big directives (perhaps not the details, but that's okay). And we don't lose time making up as we didn't start tearing each other up in the first place.

--------

One last comment: you seem to think we have the best strategy gamers. I doubt that... I know quite a few people here who are better than me in Civ. Please do not assume that GS is the only possible team for deep strategy discussions. We might have the most posts on a certain turn in the previous game, that does not mean we are better at playing... we only like to talk about it

DeepO

[Rhothaerill]

It might be interesting if both GS and Sarantium get stuck on a small island together. Beta and E_N could really have fun in the public forum.

[NicodaMax]

DeepO keeps adding to my conviction that GS has been the right choice.

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Rhothaerill
It might be interesting if both GS and Sarantium get stuck on a small island together. Beta and E_N could really have fun in the public forum.

If we lose the same amount of members this time around, there would be no more GS

E_N, I don't know if you're aware of this, but you certainly picked a strange team to advocate public trolling to. We were the first team which really felt what the public forum can do... it hurts.

DeepO

[Rhothaerill]

My thoughts as a non-GS member...

In PTWDG1 there was a certain reputation that GS gained early on, in part based on the way their diplomacy was run (very formal, somewhat unyielding, etc.). Now I've talked with most of the GS members in the Civ3 strat forum, etc. in the past three years and I haven't really seen many of you individually come across as formal and unyielding (more the opposite of that for Theseus, Vel and others), but as a team that's the way you came across until later in the game.

I don't know E_N at all, but the discussion he has sparked in this thread and the whole forum so far have been interesting. Perhaps GS as a whole isn't interested in change from what they've known before, but I think it would be an intriguing melding of the style of GS with E_N's commentaries. You might both change a bit.

[UnOrthOdOx]

The problem is: this is a demogame.

Honesty:
In public, there is no place for honesty, I'm afraid. If you are going to attack someone, you surely don't want to tick him off half a year before invasion: there's good chance he'd invade you first, and bring friends. Similarly, good friends you can't really acknowledge in the open either, he might not like it, and you show your intentions to your enemies (or lesser friends) too. Add to that that there is so much deception going on, from teams who have a concerted propaganda agenda and are ruthless in pursuing it, that there is no place for honesty at all in demogames.

If you are honest in the public forum, you are an idiot. Which again makes me one, as I more then once broke this rule.

Openness:
Well, basically the same, as the above. The same applies: there is no room for openness in demogames, at least not in the public. As an ambassador to other teams, you might be able to be more open, but we tried that and it didn't really work very well. In private, openness is of course appreciated.

humor:
This is the worst of the three. Misunderstandings from 'funny' comments were what did it for us. Some of us left wrong impressions while trying to joke, other times we felt deeply offended by what was posted by others. It's already hard enough to convey a dry, bland, meaningfull message in an forum post, let alone try to tell a joke which is appreciated by all the different cultures present.

In demogames, one misunderstanding can spoil months if not years of team interaction, so obviously mindless humor is strongly discouraged. When it's toughtfull, in good taste, and as far from trolling as possible it can only add to the positive vibe. That's extremely hard to do, I can't recall a single PTWDG member who has such a good-natured humor he can't be misunderstood.

Funny...

Team Mercenary plans to break every one of those by being open to a fault, honest whenever possible, and hopefully humorous.

Course not caring about winning allows some flexibility there I suppose.


I do hope we see more humor from GS this game. I don't give a damn who misunderstands it. My best memories from that game are from humorous posts.

My worst memories come from when certain people got all ruffled over a certain poem, and, IMO, GS took the whole 'one speaks for the whole team' way too far in that particular couple of threads.

[DeepO]

Roth,

We certainly wouldn't mind improving on the diplo front, and we already did later in the game, I think. It's just Vox wasn't on our side anymore, there was very little to discuss

I would be fearful of changing how we react in public, tough. How we were perceived by others is one thing, what we perceive ourselves is another. Personally, I've learned to toughen up, but I also learned that there is a limit to how much abuse one is willing to take in his one spare time. What I don't want to lose is my cautiousness. I was far too careless last time, and it nearly came to a point where I quit myself.

DeepO

[GeoModder]

I do hope that (possible) old grudges don't carry over into this DG. As a member of what could be considered a newcomer team in Civ that is of course alot easier.

[Arrian]

Humor...

Some of us are better at that than others...

I suggest that everyone make a basic assumption that nobody here understands sarcasm. Most do, but some don't. Use emoticons. , , , etc. are your FRIENDS.

...

As for E_N & GS, well, I can honestly say that since this is the first day back to work (BACK TO THE HOUSE OF PAIN!) after New Year's, I'm simply incapable of reading his massive posts and DeepO's long replies. I'll come back to this later.

-Arrian

[Rhothaerill]

Originally posted by DeepO
Roth,

We certainly wouldn't mind improving on the diplo front, and we already did later in the game, I think. It's just Vox wasn't on our side anymore, there was very little to discuss

Heh, true. After Vox was relocated I had only good diplo relations with you and Cort and Arrian. But we just didn't have much to talk about. Everyone knew we were in bed with Lego from that moment on, no matter how hard I tried to portray us as officially neutral.

I would be fearful of changing how we react in public, tough. How we were perceived by others is one thing, what we perceive ourselves is another. Personally, I've learned to toughen up, but I also learned that there is a limit to how much abuse one is willing to take in his one spare time. What I don't want to lose is my cautiousness. I was far too careless last time, and it nearly came to a point where I quit myself.

DeepO

I wasn't necessarily saying that GS as a whole (or individually) should suddenly change the way they do things, just that fresh approaches from new members could help your team. It could go down in a ball of flames too, but no one can predict that until the game is under way. But if you don't take the chance you'll never know.

AND WHY OH WHY DO PEOPLE ALWAYS MISS THE FIRST "H" IN RHOTH????

[DeepO]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx


Funny...

Team Mercenary plans to break every one of those by being open to a fault, honest whenever possible, and hopefully humorous.

Course not caring about winning allows some flexibility there I suppose.

Leave it to UnO to add humor. However, don't you try calling me a smelly b*stard like when you chased MWIA for half the game

I do hope we see more humor from GS this game. I don't give a damn who misunderstands it. My best memories from that game are from humorous posts.

Okay, I take back the term humor. Let's call it 'evil humor' then, for lack of the right English word, the kind where a darker meaning is used to make fun. It's easy to pretend you were only joking, while in the mean time you make something clear (basically "I don't like you", or "I don't trust you", or "You are an idiot"). Those kind of jokes are too often misunderstood.

Don't you think the Voxian and the Bobian war were handled very differently than the Lego war, and the Lego war was a much better one there? I know we acted from a feeling of respect towards Lego, and got the same in return. I certainly did not get the same expression from Vox.

My worst memories come from when certain people got all ruffled over a certain poem, and, IMO, GS took the whole 'one speaks for the whole team' way too far in that particular couple of threads.

There was too much, this was too smal to completely remember what you are talking about. Mind you, I'm not making judgement here: I know we probably have made the biggest mistakes, we certainly were the suckers of round one where Beta absolutely floored us with his "Vox public statements". We hadn't learned our lesson yet when the Bobian war broke out. Which is why it was such a big mess. I certainly hope we have learned by now, and this means no public loose cannons, period.

DeepO

[GeoModder]

Originally posted by Rhothaerill
AND WHY OF WHY DO PEOPLE ALWAYS MISS THE FIRST "H" IN RHOTH????

Was that humour?

[DeepO]

Originally posted by GeoModder
I do hope that (possible) old grudges don't carry over into this DG. As a member of what could be considered a newcomer team in Civ that is of course alot easier.

No worries, GM. Learning from past mistakes is very different from holding grudges, we didn't even do it last time: we allied with GoW who were our biggest advisaries only months (weeks?) after our war stopped to fight with someone else. And I don't hold a grudge that they double-crossed us and let us believe ND was not more of a 'special' friend than we were at that time. Just don't ask me to trust MZ soon again, though

DeepO

[DeepO]

Originally posted by GeoModder


Was that humour?

hmm... right... humour... now you see how easily it gets misunderstood

DeepO

PS: I'll try to do my best in spelling correctly, Rhoth, please don't take it personal if I miss from time to time

DeepO