Operation: Bananarama

[sunrise089]

Alone in the chat now, come hang out with me!

[sunrise089]

AHHH - Ruff, what kind of sorcery have you conjured up to make a chat room that lets new arrivals view everything typed before they join the room!
______________________

sunrise: anyone here?

Sullla from x.x.x.115 joined the chat 5 seconds ago

sunrise: hi Sullla

Sullla: yes, but the question is whether Donovan will show

sunrise: right

sunrise: since he isnt here, i had a thought about your idea to move only the galleys

sunrise: I thought about that, but it REALLY screws us if Imperio does in fact have a galley around

DX Zoi from x.x.x.10 joined the chat

Sullla: hello there Donovan

DX Zoi: Hey gang,sory for running late

Sullla: sunrise - we'll cover it another time

sunrise: hi Donovan

sunrise: just glad you could make it

DX Zoi: so, what's going on?

DX Zoi: hey sunrise

sunrise: just discussing some domestic micromanagement

DX Zoi: domestic mm re; galleys?

DX Zoi: I won't ask since I am probably not meant to see the previous concersation

sunrise: heh, something like that

Sullla: Donovan, one of our team members has suggested that you might do better with Nationhood civic than Vassalage

Sullla: since you're in Theocracy, Vassalage only gets you to 7XP on units, which isn't particularly useful

sunrise: anyways, we've noticed the Banana civ has gone quite military happy recently - nice work!

Sullla: and it removes the chance to draft units

Sullla: but yes, we're all very impressed with the recent unit production!

DX Zoi: I thought about that, but I am running out of population, so I figured I would slave experienced units

sunrise: well here is the thing

sunrise: obviously it sucks to slave and draft off the pop it took you so long to acquire, and we appreciate your pain, but desperate times...

DX Zoi: I'd like to have Muskets with some promo ability because I can use them to offset Cannons and Curs better than any other unit

DX Zoi: unless you have some ideas

sunrise: but if you do have to burn the pop, drafting is a better conversion of food to hammers than slaving.

Sullla: yes, drafting one pop for an 80-shield unit is a tremendously effective build

sunrise: so with Barracks theocracy, you get a promo on a drafted unit and 2 promos on built/slaved units, ok?

DX Zoi: except that I need promotions and I am not getting them with Natlism

sunrise: but with Barracks, Theo, and Vassalage you cant draft, and you still only get 2 promos

sunrise: you get the third promo quicker, but the payoff isnt there - much better to keep 2 promos with slaving AND be able to draft with one promo

Sullla: you get the same two promotions either way, 5XP or 7XP

DX Zoi: true. I am locked in for 5 turns anyway, so we'll see

Sullla: obviously do what you think is best, but that would be our recommendation

sunrise: definately, the best combination for units and promotion is Nationalism, Slavery, and Theo

DX Zoi: if it even makes a difference by then

sunrise: and you want to priortize drafting over whipping as long as you can stand the happiness and still have a decent ammount of cats

DX Zoi: Plus, with my pop being so small, I fiuged the free units would come in handy

sunrise: obviously a combat 1 musket isnt as nice as a 2-promo knight, but you can get a lot more per population, ya' know

Sullla: Donovan, we also want you to know that we are going to need our horses back next turn, and that we will resupply you again in 5t, as soon as our second source is connected

DX Zoi: Yes, I did miss the Barracks happiness when it went away

DX Zoi: That's fine. I will adjust my queues.

Sullla: we were glad to send them to you! the iron earlier was critical for us

Sullla: one other issue: we are trying to get some closer cooperation from Rabbits

DX Zoi: What are you planning that you need Horse? :0

Sullla: no idea if it will work, but ideally we would get them to atack PAL in the north to help you out

DX Zoi: I have talked with them briefly in -game, they are of few words

Sullla: we had the same impression, but feel it's worth a shot

sunrise: have they mentioned the terms of their peace with PAL at all?

sunrise: they wont talk to me in game, litterally ever

DX Zoi: I did run the idea of getting Metal casting from templars, but not holding my breath...

DX Zoi: I asked, and they said "Open Borders"

DX Zoi: That's the extent of it!

sunrise: great

sunrise: PAL probably just wanted the trade routes

Sullla: that's a relief, they probably have some anger at PAL too

DX Zoi: Well, it was either that or get toasted. I really don't know what the point of lingering on is for them

DX Zoi: Better to go out with honor like I am planning!

sunrise: to die glorously?

sunrise: *gloriously

Sullla: anyway, we're always happy to vet any military questions you have, or if you want another opinion, or whatever - we're not much on PAL ourselves

DX Zoi: pretty much. I am hoping my martyrdom has an impact on Imperio. I sent them an email pretty much stating "You WILL NOT winn this game as long as PAL exists>"

Sullla: screenshots of the front would be especially helpful!

DX Zoi: I can tell you what they had, though I haven't check for latest moves yet.

Sullla: any info on PAL's military would be useful to have - we see the bar graphs in the Demographics screen, but that only tells so much

sunrise: if you can us MS paint to edit a picture to show all of their units and your units, that would be ideal

Sullla: you never know what might be helpful

DX Zoi: Last I saw, they had Cannon and 2 Mace in PR with 2 Ele's and Musket 1 tile north

DX Zoi: I'll see if I can work on that, though I am thinking of going straight defense

DX Zoi: Cuirassiers passing through the bottleneck with the Rabbit Mace stack close behind. (just west of Heliopolis)

Sullla: hmmm, well at least that gives you some time

DX Zoi: Are you planning anything against Imperio?

DX Zoi: Not much though....Cuirs should arrive in 2 turns (only 2 units)

sunrise: they are unlikely to attack in earnest before they have cats on hand I think

sunrise: or cannon

DX Zoi: I also closed borders with PAL this turn

Sullla: great! that will definitely help

DX Zoi: I see 3 Cannon already

Sullla: they get much of their income through trade routes

DX Zoi: Well, they get 5 trade routes now anyway, right? Most of them would just be local then?

Sullla: yes, but your civs were at peace and Open Borders for like 100 turns; there's a big increase for such a long period of peace

Sullla: all 8 of your cities would have been worth a lot

Sullla: PAL will get 1 commerce trade routes to replace the 5-10 commerce ones they had with you

sunrise: yeah, a huge hit

DX Zoi: Good. So now they can research tech in 4 turns instead of 3. Huzzah!

Sullla: it still makes a difference - the little things add up in this game

DX Zoi: Oh, I know....I wish I could have anticipated the Steel gambit.

Sullla: no matter what happens, make sure to laugh at Templars - they are going to be dead next turn

sunrise: right - very little other than bureaucracy really makes an obvious immediate change, but it all adds up

sunrise: well not a lot we could do - we knew they were going to get lib and try to rocket ahead in tech

DX Zoi: I told Imperio that too

DX Zoi: Imperio is taking Acre, I take it?

Sullla: yes - Templars have pretty much nothing left, and Imperio's army is on the doorstep

DX Zoi: The tech run is why I decided to go for it here...I didn't want to play another 60 turns just bobbing in their wake.

DX Zoi: What are your plans if we are eliminated?

Sullla: we're hoping you won't be, not for a very long time

Sullla: we're probably screwed if PAL has that whole continent to themselves

Sullla: maybe hole up and try for a cultural victory or something like that

sunrise: I suppose if you were eleminated we'd have to declare on PAL right away or hole up, but neither option is ideal - we're in for the long haul and hope you guys are right there with us

DX Zoi: me too, and I will do my best.

Sullla: great, well I'm going to have to go soon

Sullla: it was fun chatting with you

sunrise: same here - but if war does break out, feel free to send us any screeshots you have. Heck even peacetime screenshots are great. Time and time again in our wars we've made better moves because one player caught something someone else missed.

DX Zoi: sounds good, guys. As always, thanks for your help!

sunrise: ok, goodnight Donovan!

DX Zoi: Goodnight to you both.

[ruff_hi]

AHHH - Ruff, what kind of sorcery have you conjured up to make a chat room that lets new arrivals view everything typed before they join the room!

these chat rooms always work like that unless you clear the room.

[Sullla]

I went back and cleared the room, to prevent any unnecessary info leaks. Quick summary:

- Donovan said he'd think about swapping back to Nationhood, and out of Vassalage. We tried to convince him, but I'm not sure he was persuaded.

- Told Donovan we would be canceling the horses next turn, he was OK with this.

- Banana has canceled Open Borders with PAL. Yay!

- Donovan is pretty pessimistic about his situation (with reason). We did our best to give him a pep talk, since we need Banana to keep fighting as long as humanly possible for our own good. If I were being completely truthful, I would have snuck in some remarks about, "yeah, we told you this was going to happen 50 turns ago, and you still neglected to build military and kept trading with PAL!" but that would have been rude.

- Donovan knows that something's up with us and Imperio. He kept trying to nudge the conversation in that direction, and we kept avoiding the bait. But it sounded like he WANTS us to go after Imperio, so I don't think there will be anything but applause from Banana when we pull the trigger. Donovan has a serious dislike of Imperio right now, for whatever reason.

So nothing too critical took place, but at least we got the horses issue straightened out.

[T-hawk]

Actually, I'm not so sure on Donovan. Here's my hypothesis:

Banana still wants to win the game, despite his mention of going down in glory. How can he do that? He needs PAL to be attacked and defeated. How can that happen? RB and Imperio cooperate against PAL.

If RB and Imperio start fighting, Banana gets stomped by PAL. I think Donovan initially enjoyed the idea of Imperio getting stabbed, but later after that chat session, he came to that conclusion. I think Donovan is now trying to sabotage our sneak attack, in hopes of keeping peace between RB-Imperio, so that that alliance can help him against PAL.

Donovan needs an ally, but neither RB nor Imperio can help him against PAL unless both do. If either attacks PAL alone, the other backstabs.

Also, let's not pin all the blame on the chat leakage. The actual more suspicious bit is that we needed our horses back on a very specific turn. With Templars all but gone, obviously we're looking to attack someone else. And PAL isn't the target, since if PAL was, we would be coordinating with Banana. That leaves Imperio.

[Zeviz]

It might be too late now, but perhaps we should have explained the situation better to Donovan:

Hi Donovan,

We should probably explain our position regarding Imperio. Here are their actions so far in the game:
1. During the Imperio+Templar v. RB war they did absolutely nothing with their massive army while letting their allies get slaughtered.
2. When it looked like their allies were losing badly, they switched sides.
3. After switching sides, they still let their new ally do most of the fighting and started moving their army only when the only thing left was to capture a couple lightly defended cities.
4. During all this time they continued to trade with anybody whom they weren't at war with, ignoring most embargo attempts.

So we don't trust Imperio father than we can throw them and will not send a single unit away from our continent while Imperio's army is ready to stab us in the back, like they did with their Templar allies. This means that the only thing you'll accomplish by sabotaging our surprize attack against Imperio is to delay our help against PAL.

RB

[Kodii]

The last paragraph is a little harsh since we are unsure whether Banana is actually sabotaging our attack against Imperio.

[Iamjohn]

I suppose, imo though in reality it doesn't have anything to do with knifing them. From what I can see at least the only real reason we're doing it is because it's our only real viable option for victory. If they hadn't done they're crimes we'd most likely still do it anyway.

[Zeviz]

I suppose, imo though in reality it doesn't have anything to do with knifing them. From what I can see at least the only real reason we're doing it is because it's our only real viable option for victory. If they hadn't done they're crimes we'd most likely still do it anyway.

No. If they had been a trustworthy allies we'd be planning an invasion of PAL right now. We've been trying to form an anti-PAL alliance for months, and the only reason we have to fight Imperio is that all our month of diplomacy failed to produce more than "maybe, if the weather is good and we can get some free cities while you do all the fighting and we keep a large army next to your border".