Operation: Bananarama

[sunrise089]

Ok guys, here is the tactical situation.

Here is what Banana can do with no warning:

Spoiler:

Here is what PAL can do if Banana lets them keep control of their border city:

Spoiler:

The 1, 2a, 2b paths involve moving in a stack of defensive units, cats, and 2-movers. You move everything to "1" where you are pretty safe. Then you split the 2-movers onto the "B" tiles. If Banana moves out of their cities to hit the 2-movers then you capture the cities for cheap. If they don't then you capture the other city.

Anyways, this is fast, high casualty, MP style play. It might not even be necessary considering how large PAL is...they can just build one giant stack and march from city to city. But if PAL wants to capture 4+ Banana cities in 3 turns, this is how they can do it.

[Swiss Pauli]

I've copied this to a new thread, so that we can work some tactical plans for our ally without spamming the diplo thread.

Pi Ramesses Garrsion T165

2 Maces, 2 Jumbos. 1 Musket and 2 Jumbos just north of the city

Giza Garrison T165

Archer, WC, 2 warriors.

[ruff_hi]

Chat Room Info

email from Donovan ...

Hi Realms!

Sorry, been busy busy busy lately, but am very interested in attending chats with your team. Please get me the details and I will try to make it.

Donovan

I've set up a room ... http://www.chatzy.com/525536961585

password is 'papercup'
admin password is 'paperplat' - it wouldn't let me put the 'e' in ... or I forgot it

[sunrise089]

Ok, so 5 knights kills Giza easily. Pri Rammesses needs a bit more, but elephants don't get defensive bonuses. 8 knights would probably do it, but more are obviously better since Banana can send in one at a time.

[Swiss Pauli]

More stuff from the chat:

- He's probably been training trebs: I advised cats and he said he was planning some.

- He wasn't planning an all-in lightning strike (trebs, cho-ko-nu).

- A cannon is heading down from Heliopolis, more have been whipped, but no Cuirassiers yet.

- He's also planning on sending a few units off to the New World (and made Star Wars jokes).

- He's got the hump with Imperio, but I asked him to send an offer for MT ASAP. We need him to ignore his anger with both them and rabbits in order to try to get something from them.

[Sullla]

I can't chat today with Banana, but here's something else for us to discuss with Donovan: gifting Rabbits up to (near) tech parity. Between us, we can get Rabbits some critical military stuff. It would go like this:

- RB gives Literature, Music, Drama, Philosophy.

This gets us one tech away from Nationalism - which we can also gift! - but neither ourselves nor Banana researched Civil Service. We both got it from PAL. So if Rabbits can research Civil Service themselves, we can get them Nationalism and get them drafting stuff. Heck, they got that Great Spy, maybe they can steal it from PAL! On the bottom half of the tree,

- Banana gits Feudalism, Machinery, Guilds
- RB gifts Gunpowder

The idea being to set up a situation where Rabbits sneak in and capture back Eisenburg when the PAL armies are down facing off against Banana. That would deny PAL iron again, and could shift the balance of the conflict.

Now all this involves some intricate work between three teams, plus we'd have to make sure that Rabbits would be willing to go to war against PAL again (that is, be sure they aren't a PAL vassal now!) but the payoff could be big. Worth exploring a little with Donovan if we're chatting, IMO.

EDIT: Oh, and about this:

- He's also planning on sending a few units off to the New World (and made Star Wars jokes).

No, no, no, no, no! Worst idea possible. Someone please talk him out of this. What good is a city in the New World if the Banana core gets destroyed?! Instead of a galleon, build two more cats.

[ruff_hi]

When does Banana / PAL NAP run out? What is the downside of Banana breaking the NAP by a few turns? What is the upside?

[sunrise089]

The chat is not going well.

Main points:

1) Banana has no army. 2 knights, a "few" muskets, 2 crossbows, 3 pikes, 2 trebs.
2) He has no desire to ensure the trade with Imperio for MilTrad, and will be cancelling his resource deals with them next turn.
3) He is gifting Rabbits all of his techs next turn, regardless of Rabbit's diplomatic status.
EDIT: 4) He doesn't want to just settle the new world. He wants to send an army there and capture barb cities!

Sullla, wish you were here. We need someone to put the fear of God into Banana, and I fear we'll all too nice.

[MyOtherCar]

Well, that's bye-bye Bananas
Is he at least in the proper war-civ's? To let him draft-slave away his population?
We might rethink our strategy considering this bleak situation. Team-up with Imperio against PAL? Gifting units to Bananas/Rabbits? God, we aren't even in a position to help them/hurt PAL.

[sooooo]

Banana, you need to listen to me. I know we haven't spoken for quite some time, and the last time we spoke wasn't the most pleasant. But you need to get over being mad at me, and start becoming afraid of PAL. Because they are coming, and they're coming to kill you. And unless you accept my assistance, I have no doubt they will succeed.

[Swiss Pauli]

We're working on him as much as we can. He has the chance to sleep on it, which is always a good thing. We were pretty clear about what he needed to do: whip, draft & get MT from Imperio. He's got a copy of the chat-log, so I'd hope he'd come back to us with questions and comments.

On the downside, I fear PAL & Imperio will have embargoed MT from Banana We'll find out soon enough.

[ruff_hi]

copy of chat ...

Spoiler:

Ruff_Hi ok - go
sunrise change your color Ruff?
sooooo i was reading that!
sunrise @DX - Well welcome!
Ruff_Hi no - purple is my color - but I will not talk much - heading out in 5 mins anyway
DX Zoi Thank you for having me. I have been loking forward to a round table with you all.
regoarrarr from x.x.x.148 joined the chat 79 minutes ago
Ruff_Hi @sooooo - will post in offtopic later
sooooo round table is quite appropriate
sooooo with knights etc
sunrise so how goes the Banana empire Donovan?
DX Zoi Good question!
sooooo where do you see yourself in five years time?
DX Zoi I think we will be able to launch afirst attack, but it depends what PAL brings to Giza and Pi over the next 2 turns...
DX Zoi @sooo- hopefully, done with this game
Swiss_Pauli from x.x.x.210 joined the chat 77 minutes ago
sooooo how many turns is the journey from eisenburg to giza/pi-ram?
sunrise ok, well have you decided what sort of attack you want to hit PAL with?
DX Zoi we have counters for Macemen and their Elephants, but are scratching our heads on what to do about impending Cannons and Curassiers
DX Zoi @sooooo- they got kick out of Rabbit territory, presumably west, which bought them a few turns
DX Zoi right now, they are defending PR with 2 macemen, with elephants nearby. I can see one tile north of Elephantine
DX Zoi immediate area has 2 mace, 3 elephant, 1 musket
sunrise what is physically inside the city?
sunrise well here is my basic question: The way I see it you have three options in a war - defend, attack with one movers (defensive units and collateral units), or attack with 2 movers.
DX Zoi if they leave SW hill undefended, I can have 2 chokunu, 3 pike, 2 treb, and some muskets on that hill
sunrise which sort of plan appeals to you? Obviously you have the ability to attack those PAL cities on a "one-move" if you want, with no warning
DX Zoi they will obviously be able to counter with what hey have in immediate area
sunrise hmm...well such a force could certainly kill a few units in the city, but have you considered the possibility that PAL has additional defenders they can put inside the city?
sunrise what is your knight situation like?
DX Zoi 2 mace in PR currently btw, with Mace and Musket 1 tile N
sunrise hmm...if you had four knights you could probably take that city with no warning
DX Zoi I can see all the way out to Elephantine and not much is there yet
DX Zoi Theri stack of Maces will not reach battle in time
DX Zoi I can also defend, and they couldn't touch us for awhile
sunrise well you have to assume PAL will put any units they have in the area inside a threatened city, and slave out a new defender. I'm not sure it would be better to attack with one movers that give them warning...if you can produce the knights a quick surgical strike would be very powerful
DX Zoi Giza has War Chariot, Archer, 2 warrior only (possibility of upgrades)
sunrise see, the problem with defending is that PAL can attack you quite a few different ways....let me send you a picture
sooooo http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/3420/xpalattack.jpg is the fear
Swiss_Pauli razing Pi would give you cultural control of the surrounding area, slowing PAL's attack.
sunrise ok, once again Giza could be taken out by 4-5 knights with no losses likely
sunrise to explain that picture, the yellow lines are where PAL could hit with no warning, and the numbers are where they could send in a mixed stack, and then split their mounted units off to the "B" tiles and threaten two cities at once
DX Zoi @swiss, that's what I would like, which would protect western cities
sunrise is Pi the culture bomb city, or was elephantine?
DX Zoi I will definitely look it over. Thank you!
sunrise Soooo, can you paste the link to the pic of the possible Banana knight attack option?
Swiss_Pauli @sunrise: how many knights would be needed to raze Pi with current defenders?
DX Zoi I can't tell. I know that both Foster and Omni Point are at 100% culture and we still haven't secured the bananas
DX Zoi 100points coulture
sooooo http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/1...nanaattack.jpg
DX Zoi I would like to attack first, and get that culture if possible
sooooo you could "accidentally" get the date of the NAP expiry off by a turn
sunrise @Swiss - there are only 2 knights there right now, and the city is on flat land, right?
sunrise @Soooo - I agree. The best way to kill the city with minimal looses is to hit it before PAL expects it, which would be aided by attacking during the NAP
Swiss_Pauli DX Zoi: 2 mace in PR currently btw, with Mace and Musket 1 tile N
DX Zoi elephant and musket
Swiss_Pauli We can assume the mace and musket will garrison Pi
Ruff_Hi when you say "kill that city" - do you mean Capture or Raze?
sunrise ok, well the mace and mustket never come into play, so it's 2 mace, on flat land, with 25% fortification, combat 1, and what, 100% culture defense? That means strength 18.8 and 2.5 knights per defender probably.
DX Zoi what do you all think of that? I'd prefer to raze
sunrise but if the musket and mace are walking down and will enter the city then it will be harder...I had assumed they were hanging out behind the city for several turns
sunrise definately raze, if it were me at least
sooooo yes, got to raze
DX Zoi I have a stack of one turners that will easily handle those two, though.
DX Zoi 2-3 pikes, chokunu, trebs
sooooo sorry, I missed how many knights you have Donovan?
Swiss_Pauli they'll be needed against PAL's main attack force
DX Zoi like to get them in place on the western hill
DX Zoi that's why I don't want to burn them up attcking full culture
DX Zoi knights, sunrise
DX Zoi 2-3 pikes, chokunu, trebs1 in 2 turns
DX Zoi [sorry auto fill]
DX Zoi 2 knights, with 1 in 2 turns
DX Zoi [which you can then get you Horses back btw]
sunrise ok
sooooo maybe you should just switch every city to knight and whip next turn
sunrise well that may not be quite enough units to capture hose PAL cities on the cheap....I would consider (as Soooo just said) getting more knights, even if it is costly
sunrise unfortunately, because PAL's power is rising so rappidly, you may be forced to act like us right after we were declared on - slaving (and now drafting) units as fast as you can
Swiss_Pauli have you started drafting yet?
DX Zoi how so? trebs soften city to 8%, pike kills tusk, chokunus kill mace, Knights clean up the mess
DX Zoi have to deal with whipped defender if giving 1-turn warning
sooooo pike fights mace and chokunu fights elephant
sunrise yeah, since the defenders best unit always defends first, you won't get favorible matchups
sunrise and if that city is a culture bomb, it will take several turns to lower the defenses
DX Zoi the knights can maybe hit them up
sooooo i mean, if I were in your position I'd slave every city for a knight and draft every city, running culture slider if necessary
DX Zoi It's still at 40%
DX Zoi Pi is at 40% culture. Does that factor into anything?
DX Zoi what will culture bomb do to bombardment percentage?
Swiss_Pauli A bomb is 4k culture
sunrise doesn't a bomb trigger like 80% culture, or even 100%?
sunrise it's five rings, right?
sunrise counting the default one
DX Zoi @sooooo - yes, I know the attacks would be different, but we would be hard to kick off of our post because we would have defense advantage
DX Zoi knights, muskets could attack the heirarchy until I get favorable results
sunrise unfortunately Donovan, you only get a 25% advantage, so PAL Curaissars will still be able to hit you
Swiss_Pauli 10, 100, 500, 50000, 50'0000 so it should be 60% if they bombed
sooooo if you only had 1 city to defend then the defensive advantage would win. but you have about 5 cities to defend
DX Zoi it is not
DX Zoi it's at 40%
Swiss_Pauli ahhh. In that case it's worse than we feared
DX Zoi How so, swiss?
sunrise well if you want to go in with everything, the best order is to hit with the trebs first (don't bombard, just attack), then the muskets, then the knights, then the mace, and then the crossbows I suppose
sooooo sorry, i was mixed up. sunrise was talking about the hill defense, I see now
Swiss_Pauli In order to get the borders to expand to take in horses, Giza & Pi would have to be razed.
Swiss_Pauli Does PAL still have a great artist somewhere?
sunrise but I agree with Soooo...I think your best chance is to slave almost every turn and draft three cities per turn...you can hopefully get some knights ASAP, burn that city, and then use the muskets as defenders when PAL marches in. Against Curaisars, muskets will do OK if you hit the enemy units with several cats first
DX Zoi yes
sunrise oh, sorry guys, I had assumed PAL had already bombed that city
DX Zoi it's in the Warning, if you are interested in getting it
Swiss_Pauli Razing the warning is on our to-do list...
DX Zoi You'll have to go through Imperio first
sooooo it's a very long to-do list
DX Zoi mine too, #137
sunrise well rest assuared, anything and everything we can do to aid you is on the table, but as you say, we arent yet in a position to get to The Warning
sunrise which makes it all the more important that you get some units built and smash some PAL cities
sooooo so, are you eager to do some whipping and drafting donovan?
DX Zoi I am cutting resources to Imperio this turn in the hopes of getting them to turn. The only way to get them back would be to turn on PAL
sooooo it's fun, honest!
sunrise actually Donovan, do you want to make sure your trade with Imperio goes through first?
Swiss_Pauli we went 'all-in' on military when we got declared upon, and we're doing doing OK
DX Zoi Yes, I had been considering it this turn anyway, esp since I am about to lose 6 resources!
sunrise or are you not going to trade with them?
sooooo why lose resources?
DX Zoi Sunrise, I'd like it but Imperio needs a wake-up call
Swiss_Pauli you really need to try to get MT from Imperio
DX Zoi trading with the tech leader is a bad move, which just so happened to screw us over pretty bad.
sooooo i'd keep the resource deal with imperio personally until the MT trade goes through
Swiss_Pauli it's bad that they traded it pal, but it's worse if you upset them and don't get MT as a result
sooooo you won't lose our resources or imperio's
Swiss_Pauli same with rabbits: we still need to sponsor them with tech gifts
sooooo the only ones you lose are anything you are getting from PAL
Swiss_Pauli in spite of them making peace with PAL
DX Zoi maybe. I am just pretty PO'd atm
sunrise I agree Soooo. Donovan, I suggest two actions as the absolute most important things: 1) get more units via copious slaving and drafting, and 2) ensure you trade for MilTrad with Imperio
DX Zoi Rabbits will be getting all 4 available tech from me at the end of this turn
sunrise excellent
sunrise but do we think we should wait a bit and talk to rabbits first?
sunrise since they made peace with PAL, it isnt entirely clear where they stand. We were thinking of offering to gift them everythnig we can and try to coordinate with you to do the same, but only if we know they're going to serve as an obstacle and not an ally to PAL
Swiss_Pauli I think we need to act: PAL's the only civ they can threaten militarily
DX Zoi No, we will gift first. Rabbits and Imperio have terrible diplo, so they need to be coaxed a bit
DX Zoi they get the gifts, and hopefully they talk
sooooo one can hope
DX Zoi tell them there are more on the way. do you have any problem giving them gunpowder? I am prepared to give them Machinery and Guilds
sooooo the problem is that I think they lack metal casting
sooooo unless they got it recently
DX Zoi but they need Metal Casting and certainly others to get there
sooooo templars researched metal casting and templars are playing OCC
DX Zoi great minds.........
Swiss_Pauli yup. maybe donovan can bribe templars to gift MC to Rabbits...
DX Zoi with what, refugee status?
sooooo they only have acre left
DX Zoi "hey, guys! have fun? wanna do it all over again?
Swiss_Pauli cash for upgrades? they did DoW Imperio...
sooooo probably there is nothing you can offer
sooooo but may as well ask. templars and rabbits are in a similar position
DX Zoi they are goners, so I agree
Swiss_Pauli guilds?
DX Zoi thought did cross my mind, though
sooooo probably templars are rather embarrassed to be eliminated before rabbits
DX Zoi nothing they can do with it, really
sunrise I also heard that you are considering building ships and sailing for the new world Donovan. True?
DX Zoi strongly considering it, though it would cost me about 15gpt for the first city
Swiss_Pauli no, but declaring on Imperio wasn't a winning move either.
DX Zoi do you have any interst in the new world?
sooooo not really
Swiss_Pauli i'd gift guilds and ask them to do the 'right thing' and gift MC to rabbits
sunrise well it is up to you, but obviously any hammers you put into ships and settlers could also build more defenders
DX Zoi don't need settlers
sooooo oh i remember: what's the odds on next turn's great person?
DX Zoi just some units to take 2-3 barb cities

[ruff_hi]

part 2 ...

Spoiler:

sunrise RB isn't really interested in the new world...we have more development we can do at home yet.
Swiss_Pauli new world is pretty low down the to-do list
DX Zoi it's like 71sci-26 art
DX Zoi Lower than the Warning?
Swiss_Pauli considerably
sooooo mmkay. and your plan is still to lightbulb PP before you get astro if it's a scientist?
sooooo then use the other scientist to lightbulb chem?
DX Zoi yes, though I really need to get Astro to trade for MP
DX Zoi MT
sooooo ok
sunrise when is the GP due?
sunrise next turn?
sooooo does the current GS cover the whole cost of PP?
DX Zoi so, bulb and fininsh PP, buld chem, finish Astro, finish Chem
sooooo cool
sunrise sounds good to me
DX Zoi I think t only applies 1600
DX Zoi pretty sure I checked that
DX Zoi If I happen to get an Artist though, I will probably go GA
Swiss_Pauli I'm looking at a plan B in case you get an Artist (will need to be checked)
DX Zoi will only be 1 turn to Astro btw
DX Zoi 2 turns now
sooooo ok. we're not in a massive rush for astro because we need optics first
sooooo so don't worry about that
Swiss_Pauli it would involve razing Pi then founding a city on the border hill gems, and bombing it.
DX Zoi no offense, but wasn't thinking about you guys. lol
Swiss_Pauli how much culture does Elephantine have?
sooooo heh, point taken
DX Zoi I believe 40%
DX Zoi pretty sure acytually
DX Zoi that crossed my mind, but never fully considered the idea. I like it
Swiss_Pauli does pal have any workers in the border area?
DX Zoi one or two, ithink they are 1 tile inland though
DX Zoi not going to risk troops for workers, just yet
Swiss_Pauli watch out for them roading the jungle outside of Banana Split
DX Zoi I was thing of putting muskets on each Jungle square and forested hill at our border. Is that a waste?
DX Zoi PAL would still be able to sneak right past, per picture
DX Zoi we could fully block off banana split
DX Zoi if we take their 2 jungle tiles
Swiss_Pauli i think they'd just steam though, or strike elsewhere
DX Zoi seemed like a waste to me too
DX Zoi what will you be researching after Music?
sunrise yes, don't put units 1-at-a-time on defensive tiles, since that really only kills one enemy unit. You just want to have your own units on your road network
Swiss_Pauli yeah, sooooo, what are we researching next?
DX Zoi Optics is my guess
sooooo we are researching optics next
sunrise anyways guys, I hope you continue with a fruitful discussion....I've got to run to an appointment. Donovan, it was a pleasure and I'm happy and available to chat almost any day.
DX Zoi zing!
Swiss_Pauli Or maybe Rep Parts if we're lucky
sooooo optics first
sooooo then we see
DX Zoi thanks for your help, sunrise. I look forward to future meetings!
sooooo i have to go too. need a draft of my thesis in tomorrow
DX Zoi can someone get me a copy of this c hat?
sooooo yeah, ruff how do you get the chat log?
DX Zoi from x.x.x.10 joined the chat 16 minutes ago
DX Zoi save/print button
sooooo ah, got it too
sooooo cool. byebye
Swiss_Pauli laters
DX Zoi take care all, and thanks
sunrise from x.x.x.194 left the chat 13 minutes ago

[Sullla]

Oy. That didn't go as well as I hoped. The chat shows convincingly that Donovan doesn't really understand the situation he's in, plus doesn't understand the difference between fighting humans instead of AIs. Seriously, stick one defender on each jungle tile?! *facepalm*

Yeah, well hopefully we'll get 20t out of Banana before PAL steamrolls them. But I don't know if we can count on even that much... Here's a Power chart from a few turns ago:



PAL is actually considerably higher than this now! Since it's unlikely we're going to get any tactical brilliance out of Donovan, the best option is probably to slam home the importance of slaving and drafting as many units as possible. At least that will increase the time it takes PAL to chew through Banana territory. On this bar graph, about 150k of Banana's total rating is from population, techs, and city improvements. They only have ~140k of Power to face off against 400k or more from PAL! If we send off an email, it needs to stress again the whipping/drafting of as many units as possible.

I'm also pissed that we gave them horses for 10+ turns, and they barely built any knights! We could have used those horses!!!

[darrelljs]

I'm also pissed that we gave them horses for 10+ turns, and they barely built any knights! We could have used those horses!!!

Yeah, that struck me too .

Darrell