The Civics Thread

[sooooo]

But it's much better to do it during our own 16 hours so then we can move the units that we have just drafted.

[Swiss Pauli]

A look at the trade & demographics screens tells me we're not in a military hole, but a tech hole. As such, I'm convinced that we should use our GA to tech as strongly as we can, and not waste the extra hammers and commerce by leaving Bureaucracy for Nationalism until the last turn of the GA.

[sunrise089]

But isn't the longer-term tech play to run the last 5 turns of the GA in Nationalism and then switch BACK to Bureaucracy?

[sooooo]

Bah, teching can wait, we need to draft! We're on the eve of operation bloodbath, we can't get cold feet now! We have focussed our technology to get to this exact point, gotten the globe theatre exactly on time. To give up now to try to get some silly economic tech a few turns earlier is lunacy. I mean, what exactly do you want to tech quicker? Education to get universitites for +25% research which running net 35% on the slider? No no no. We have techs to build economic buildings, we're just chosing not to build them! We can build a monastery, market, grocer and bank in many cities we're just chosing not to. All of those except a bank are cheaper than a university.

By revolting from bureaucracy to nationhood we lose 28 GPT at A1 (no modifiers until our bank is complete, then it will be 39 gpt). When we move into mercantilism we would gain (23x1.25 + 3 x 2.35) 35 beakers after modifiers. They pretty much cancel each other out until we increase the research slider.

[Swiss Pauli]

Operation Bloodbath is a bust whether we get peace with Imperio now or not: we don't need it to take Jerusalem from Templars (and get 3/4 new cities depending on how we see Red dot); it relied to an extent on a slight lack of military prep from Imperio which isn't the case; and we didn't forsee PAL sponsoring Imperio to the extent that they are: this will only get worse the longer the warring continues.

We need to strike a balance between military and tech: taking on an Imperio that can field cuirassiers & grens against pikes & oromo is no good. It'd be great to trade a partly-bulbed Edu to Banana for Astro.

Lastly, I don't know why you're bring Merc (which I support) into the discussion on BUR v Nat.

[mostly-harmless]

Who says Bloodbath is intended for just Jerusalem. If we get 15 Mace in 5 turns as regoarrar suggests (or even 15 Oromos) I can see us marching all the way to the channel.

mh

[dsplaisted]

Who says Bloodbath is intended for just Jerusalem. If we get 15 Mace in 5 turns as regoarrar suggests (or even 15 Oromos) I can see us marching all the way to the channel.

mh

If Imperio holds up the peace deal, we don't need to take any more Templar cities after Jerusalem.

If Imperio doesn't, will we be able to defend our new territory from them if we do march all the way to the channel?

[sooooo]

Operation Bloodbath is a bust whether we get peace with Imperio now or not: we don't need it to take Jerusalem from Templars (and get 3/4 new cities depending on how we see Red dot); it relied to an extent on a slight lack of military prep from Imperio which isn't the case; and we didn't forsee PAL sponsoring Imperio to the extent that they are: this will only get worse the longer the warring continues.

We need to strike a balance between military and tech: taking on an Imperio that can field cuirassiers & grens against pikes & oromo is no good. It'd be great to trade a partly-bulbed Edu to Banana for Astro.

It's not just to take Jerusalem. It's to take other templar cities and to be secure against Imperio, since after we make/take new cities in Templar lands we'll have a long border with them. Imperio may well be given the techs to field curassiers and grenadiers but that's even more reason to draft a big army and take them out before they can build too many. They don't instantly have curassiers and grenadiers when they are given MT or chemistry, they have to build them and that takes time.

But honestly Swiss, Operation Bloodbath has been a long time planning and pretty much everyone agreed with it. I think you're the only dissenting voice on the eve of it beginning. Taking on Imperio was the plan at the start of operation bloodbath and it still is the plan.

[dsplaisted]

But honestly Swiss, Operation Bloodbath has been a long time planning and pretty much everyone agreed with it. I think you're the only dissenting voice on the eve of it beginning. Taking on Imperio was the plan at the start of operation bloodbath and it still is the plan.

What if Imperio holds up their end of the deal to sign peace and give us gunpowder? In that case (IMO at least) we're stuck in a 40 turn NAP.

[sooooo]

Not that I believe for one second that we will get gunpowder (even a peace treaty is not guaranteed), but if that does happen then we have the option of switching back to bureaucracy on T7 of the golden age. That's obviously worse than bureaucracy for 7 turns of golden age and then nationalism, but IMO we shouldn't focus on that because it's extremely unlikely to happen.

[mostly-harmless]

Who says we are stuck in a NAP? As far as I understand Imperio will break agreements with Templars and PAL if they ally with us. And I am still not convinced that will happen.

mh

[Kylearan]

Hi,

I strongly agree with soooo that we really should go through with Operation Bloodbath. One thing the last couple of turns should have shown us is that now time is against us, if all other teams continue to cooperate an leave us out. And now that we've scored the Taj and started a golden age, I think they will feel even stronger that we are the biggest threat in the game. So concentrating on teching will do us no good: Even our combined godly micromanagement might will not make us tech faster than the other allied teams!

As soooo noted, we don't want to let Imperio build many grens and cuirassiers, so the time is now to go for an all-out war. We might fail, but I think this is our last chance to secure a potentially winning position in this game.

In that light, I also hope Imperio will not accept the peace deal, and if they do we should backstab them. 40 turns of NAP, and we won't be able to attack them any longer. I hate backstabbing, but we've been screwed over enough in this game so now even I vote to resort to dastardly tactics. We have all the advantage now we will likely ever be able to get, so let's use this advantage!

I don't like drafting maces, so of course if we can somehow get gunpowder that would be great. If not, let's draft maces anyway and let Sunrise do some magic!

-Kylearan

[regoarrarr]

I agree with the above statements supporting Operation Bloodbath

[T-hawk]

I support Bloodbath, but the problem is that we need Gunpowder. We need our strong uncounterable UU, not generic maces.

If I were soloing, I'd use the Golden Age in Bureaucracy to research Gunpowder now, then go to Nationalism to draft. Bloodbath hasn't been abandoned, it's just not time for it yet. We still don't have all the pieces.

[sooooo]

The commerce loss from going bureaucracy to nationalism is currently 28 base. I'm not sure what our current beaker per turn rate is at break-even science because we're not in mercantilism yet, but I would only estimate that it would add 1 or 2 turns to gunpowder. I think that's OK. I think we're fine to draft a round of macemen now. We'll get gunpowder by the time that the "No! We won't go!" penalty wears off.

Oromos are obviously better than macemen, but I don't think they are so much better that it's better to start drafting oromos in 6 turns rather than drafting macemen for 8 turns and then starting on oromos.