Turnplayer Thread #3

[mostly-harmless]

Ah, Templars improved their turnplay. Now finished turn with 1h26' on the clock!

mh

[T-hawk]

Alrighty then. This is pretty much the argument for Colossus: three chops + whip overflow = wonder. You can't really beat that. Heck, I'd build the wonder even if it didn't help us at all, to deny it to the other teams.

Wee bit more than that -- the plan still does need the fourth chop and double-whip on the forge. Mellow probably wouldn't whip the forge if not for the Colossus plan, so there is a bit of opportunity cost here.

[Sullla]

All right, let's kick off T126:

- We had two cities grow this turn, China Beach and Cape Town. At China Beach, we swapped over to a 5t worker, as planned. We'll let this one finish normally (I think), as China Beach is still under the effects of two whipping penalties, and 5t is not bad at all for a worker build! We'll almost certainly whip a forge in here after the worker, however...

- Cape Town finishes its catapult, which I dubbed Kat. We get a total of 48 shields this turn with overflow, just short of enough to build another cat. I'd still like to see us build another catapult regardless; we should probably get up to 4 cats before we go back to building elephants/maces.

- Two forest chops completed. One went into the Forge at Mellow Yellow, as part of our "Project Colossus" which is going on sort of low-key in the background right now. Mellow gets double-whipped next turn, with forge overflow going into the wonder.

The other forest chop came at the capital, where it dropped the ETA on National Epic to 4t. We pop a Great Person in 5t, so the timing works out really well to get one more pure Great Scientist before adding in the chance of an Artist. Bernard will also produce another cottage just in time before Airstrip One grows to size 11. (4t for cottage, 6t for growth to next size. Nice!)

- Our worker pair at Something Fishy completed our first dyes plantation! This makes a major difference already in our beaker rate. You can see the tech bar change when we do/do not work the dyes tile. 5-commerce (base) tiles are awesome - dig the little moneybag symbols!

- It was also a great turn for roadbuilding. We completed road segments on both ends of the Pink/Cape road, and now only a single road link remains to be finished:



Just the boxed tile in yellow remaining. Our two workers in the area are both being covered by units, a horse archer (pausing en route to the Cape) and spearman, just to make sure Imperio's chariot doesn't try anything funny. We can cover them both with the spear next turn... Speaking of that chariot, how do we want to handle it? What do we do if it starts heading up north, to our undefended cities? Maybe send our spear in Airstrip One up to Saxon, and our fogbusting archer to Bluebell Woods? Or involve Betty Hur in some way? Suggestions welcome here, guys. It's a minor matter, but we want to avoid doing something really stupid and losing a city off this.

Note in the above picture that Helmholtz used his "free" turn of movement towards Bluebell to get a road completed near Airstrip One - sweet!

- Pink Dot finished a fourth horse archer (Secretariat) and is going to pop out a belated library over the next 4t. I think we should keep this horse archer at home in Pink, since we can easily reinforce to Cape Town via the road if absolutely necessary, and it's good to have a little more presence in Pink. Thoughts on this?

Actually, in the post-Engineering world, we should keep all our 2-move units in Twin Peaks, where they can reach either Pink OR the Cape in a single turn of movement. Do I have that right, sunrise?

- Foreign stuff... PAL gained SEVEN population this turn! Craziness. But what's more important is Imperio, who...



Continue to move their stack east! It really looks like this group is heading across the Channel onto PAL's continent. Are they planning to attack PAL? Or maybe build some cities overe there? (Perhaps Calakmul is building a settler, which would explain the strange mystery build.) Either way, it's music to our ears! PAL/Imperio conflict is the best thing possible for us, probably even better than Imperio/Templars conflict. I can't see this as a fake move - I truly believe Imperio is moving across the sea. They're moving too far in the opposite direction for this to be a stroke against us.

So finally, FINALLY some good news out of Imperio! At least, we think. Overall this was a pretty quiet turn, but that's not a bad thing as our civ continues to develop and grow stronger, economically and militarily.

[sunrise089]

Imperio movement - If they're moving against PAL, why or why wouldn't they be desperate for a NAP with us? I think a move on Templar is more likely, along the eastern coast for whatever reason.

Left-field thought: maybe they want to load up on galleys and land to the west of cape copper, cutting off our army.

Defense in the north - I think putting a unit in each city with a chariot in between to cover should work fine.

2-movers - Sullla is right...always better to be able to cover more cities unless the front city can be one-moved or two-moved without our units being able to hit the enemy stack.

[T-hawk]

At China Beach, we swapped over to a 5t worker, as planned. We'll let this one finish normally (I think), as China Beach is still under the effects of two whipping penalties, and 5t is not bad at all for a worker build! We'll almost certainly whip a forge in here after the worker, however...

No, wrong whip! Get the whip in on the worker, and CB will regrow to its current size by the time the worker would finish naturally. Slow-building a worker is 1:1 food:hammer conversion. Whipping is 2:1 or better! CB can take the anger, one whip penalty is soon to expire. I'll run the numbers later after work to demonstrate the superiority of the worker whip.

- Our worker pair at Something Fishy completed our first dyes plantation! This makes a major difference already in our beaker rate. You can see the tech bar change when we do/do not work the dyes tile. 5-commerce (base) tiles are awesome - dig the little moneybag symbols!

Which is why we need CB's worker all the sooner. Figuring that he'll go improve silks at Bluebell, that's an extra turn of 5-commerce tile for each turn sooner the worker comes out.

Speaking of that chariot, how do we want to handle it? What do we do if it starts heading up north, to our undefended cities? Maybe send our spear in Airstrip One up to Saxon, and our fogbusting archer to Bluebell Woods? Or involve Betty Hur in some way? Suggestions welcome here, guys. It's a minor matter, but we want to avoid doing something really stupid and losing a city off this.

No easy answers here. Ideally we tell Templars to get it out of there and they comply. I don't think we can afford to close borders to get rid of it, though. Betty Hur can't do much against another chariot; Combat II isn't enough to reliably win.

[ruff_hi]

We have engineering in 2 turns with (what looks like) quite a bit of overflow. Do we want to dial down science to generate some cash (keep the 2 turn horizon)? Can someone post the beaker / gold trade off?

[sooooo]

OK, empire looking good. Not many decisions this turn.

It was also a great turn for roadbuilding.

@Ruff: I assume we will go 100% this turn, then dial down to the minimun %age to get the tech next turn. Engineering is useful for our workers too, so we do want it in 2 turns I believe.

I'm happy with library in Pink Dot. After that I reckon some more military.

China Beach I'm fine to agree with T-Hawk's assessment to whip the worker next turn.

Regarding the Mayan chariot I suppose all we can do is have Airstrip One's spearman to shadow and keep Betty in range. But we do need garrisons in those two northern cities eventually. We could probably spare an archer from Cape Town. Yes, let's move the archer that was covering the worker towards Bluebell Woods next turn since she will not be needed (spear can cover both workers).

Agree we want two more catapults from Cape Town (3 turns) before moving onto something else.

At something fishy I'd like to build a barracks after the forge. With project colossus it won't get any more tile improvements for a while but that's probably OK.

At airstrip one I propose an Islamic Monastery after the National Epic. Cheap building that's well worth the beakers it brings in.

[sunrise089]

Yes, we should certainly run the minimum beakers we need to next turn to still land Engineering in 2T total.

[ruff_hi]

ok - np ... 100% this turn and enough to get it next turn.

In SP games, I usually start dialing down 3 or 4 turns out, holding the turn count constant, but dailing down the tech percentage. I think this is the best way to get the smallest overflow - not sure what it does to the binary tech argument .

[Dreylin]

Re: the Chariot, isn't that a Horse Archer sitting right next to it at the moment? Logically, we would want a Spear to trail it, however it wouldn't be able to keep up. Just divert the HA to shadow it, and then Betty can proceed to Cape for mop-up duties.

[Sullla]

I see I still have much to learn on the fine art of whipping from our micro masters...

Ruff, I would post the gold/beakers breakdown, but it's probably going to come out optimal to do 100% plus minimum needed next turn anyway. I will still give the numbers if I have time tomorrow, which may or may not happen.

sooooo, I think the current plan is to whip a settler at Something Fishy after we finish the forge (settler most likely going to Twin Peaks spot). Barracks or theatre, if we manage to trade for Drama, would be good options after that.

You're a step ahead of me with Aistrip One - Islamic monastery was going to be my next suggestion there as well. Another +10% beakers and then we can start some Islamic spread for Theology purposes later on.

Dreylin, having the horse archer shadow the chariot is one possibility. We'd probably rather keep it moving towards Cape Town though. Let's keep the discussion going though! I don't think we've resolved the best way to solve this issue as yet.

[sooooo]

sooooo, I think the current plan is to whip a settler at Something Fishy after we finish the forge (settler most likely going to Twin Peaks spot)

Hmm, are you sure? I thought the twin peaks settler was getting triple whipped out of Green Acres?

[Zeviz]

Hmm, are you sure? I thought the twin peaks settler was getting triple whipped out of Green Acres?

We could do both. We have a lot of filler cities to make, and Red Dot just needs a workboat to get it started. (Talking about this, should we put in a workboat for red dot at China Beach? It will take a while for that workboat to get there.)

[T-hawk]

China Beach analysis. BTW, it's already down to 1 whip anger penalty. It currently has 9 hammers into the forge.

Plan A, worker now, whip forge later:
T126, size 6, food 16/32, worker 0/60. +5F +7H.
T127, size 6, food 16/32, worker 12/60. +4F +10H. Winston's mine completes and we switch coast for hill
T128, size 6, food 16/32, worker 26/60. +4F +10H.
T129, size 6, food 16/32, worker 40/60. +4F +10H.
T130, size 6, food 16/32, worker 54/60. +4F +10H.
T131, size 6, food 16/32, forge 9/120. +4F +10H +8H overflow.
T132, size 6, food 20/32, forge 27/120. +4F +10H.
T133, size 6, food 24/32, forge 37/120. +4F +10H.
T134, size 6, food 28/32, forge 47/120. +4F +10H.
T135, size 7, food 16/34, forge 57/120. +4F +10H. (7th laborer on coast)
T136, size 7, food 20/34, forge 67/120. +4F +10H. Double whip forge
T136 post whip, size 5, food 20/30, forge 127/120. +5F +8H.
T137, size 5, food 25/30, next build 0/xx. +5F +8H +15H overflow x1.25.
T138, size 6, food 15/32, next build 28/xx. +4F +10H x1.25. (6th laborer on forest)
T139, size 6, food 19/32, next build 40/xx. +4F +10H x1.25.
T140, size 6, food 23/32, next build 52/xx.

Plan B, whip the worker now:
T126, size 6, food 16/32, worker 0/60. +5F +7H.
T127, size 6, food 16/32, worker 12/60. +4F +10H. Double whip worker
T127 post whip, size 4, food 16/28, worker 72/60. +6F +5H. Winston's mine completes and we switch coast for hill
T128, size 4, food 16/28, forge 9/60. +6F +5H +23H overflow.
T129, size 4, food 22/28, forge 37/60. +6F +5H.
T130, size 5, food 14/30, forge 42/120. +5F +8H. (5th laborer on hill)
T131, size 5, food 19/30, forge 50/120. +5F +8H.
T132, size 5, food 24/30, forge 58/120. +5F +8H.
T133, size 5, food 29/30, forge 66/120. +5F +8H.
T134, size 6, food 19/32, forge 74/120. +4F +10H. (6th laborer on forest)
T135, size 6, food 23/32, forge 84/120. +4F +10H.
T136, size 6, food 27/32, forge 94/120. +4F +10H.
T137, size 6, food 31/32, forge 104/120. +4F +10H.
T138, size 7, food 19/34, forge 114/120. +4F +10H. (7th laborer on coast)
T139, size 7, food 23/34, next build 0/xx. +4F +10H +4H overflow x1.25.
T140, size 7, food 27/34, next build 17/xx.

Plan B comes out one city size ahead but 35 hammers behind. But Plan B is conclusively superior, if another whip on T140 is assumed. That would re-equalize the city sizes at 6 but come out 4F and 2H ahead. (whip worth 37H thanks to forge.)

However, I've got yet a better plan. Let China Beach continue on forge for the moment, accumulating food until it's just shy of size 7. Then it can grow back right away after whipping the worker instead of three turns later.

Plan C, whip worker just before growing to size 7:
T126, size 6, food 16/32, forge 9/120. +5F +7H.
T127, size 6, food 21/32, forge 16/120. +4F +10H. Winston's mine completes and we switch coast for hill
T128, size 6, food 25/32, forge 26/120. +4F +10H.
T129, size 6, food 29/32, worker 0/60. +4F +10H. Switch to worker on T129.
T130, size 6, food 29/32, worker 14/60. +4F +10H. Double whip worker
T130 post whip, size 4, food 29/28, worker 74/60. +6F +5H. And we grow even while building the worker.
T131, size 5, food 15/30, forge 36/120. +5F +8H +25H overflow. (5th laborer on hill)
T132, size 5, food 20/30, forge 69/120. +5F +8H.
T133, size 5, food 25/30, forge 77/120. +5F +8H.
T134, size 6, food 15/32, forge 85/120. +4F +10H. (6th laborer on forest)
T135, size 6, food 19/32, forge 95/120. +4F +10H.
T136, size 6, food 23/32, forge 105/120. +4F +10H.
T137, size 6, food 27/32, forge 115/120. +4F +10H.
T138, size 6, food 31/32, next build 0/xx. +4F +10H +5H overflow x1.25.
T139, size 7, food 19/34, next build 18/xx. +4F +10H x1.25. (7th laborer on coast)
T140, size 7, food 23/34, next build 30/xx.

Plan C compared to plan B comes out -4F but +13H. Winner: plan C.

Plan C compared to plan A comes out +1 city size (+16F) and -22H. Whip away that city size and plan C is +0F and +15H. Winner: plan C.

More generally, plan A violates the principle of "whip the food-consuming units" while plan B violates "never whip a grassland hill laborer". Plan C gets the best of both worlds, coming out 15 hammers ahead, and the only loss is 3 turns of worker labor.

So I changed China Beach back to Forge for the moment, and placed a sign on it reading "Worker T129 whip T130".

[Swiss Pauli]

Banana news: Banana Split is suffering a slave revolt, and they still haven't cancelled our Iron