War Games

[regoarrarr]

Woohoo! Sullla is finally onboard with the Oracle-love!!

[ruff_hi]

yeah - my analysis was with no forest chops so with forest chops speeds it up. However, you have 2 forest chops from which workers? A1 is working on one now, but where does the other one come from.

Also, this will slow down our GLib due to the loss of commerce.

Finally, I don't think that we can whip on T93 because the chop hammers haven't been added to the list - I think whipping then will whip it to total completion and the chop hammers will go into overflow (I could be wrong on this).

Let me see if I can put together a time line for Pink Dot on Oracle build and see how we go.

Now who is the doom and gloom guy

[regoarrarr]

Yeah - I think that we should try and build it in Pink Dot - if we're going to chop 1 or 2 forests it shouldn't be more than 1 turn different in Pink Dot if at all

[Dreylin]

Originally posted by ruff_hi
However, you have 2 forest chops from which workers? A1 is working on one now, but where does the other one come from.

Isn't Winston still hanging around up there pre-chopping?

It doesn't just take commerce away from the GL push, but also two pre-chopped forests. (as well as polluting the GP pool in A1)

FWIW, my 2p favours an option in Pink Dot if considered competitive....

[ruff_hi]

Using Sullla's timeline but building at Pink Dot ...

Turn 89 (current turn - turn 0):
- City built (check!)
- both workers move onto forest tile 2 N of new city (check!)
- Swap Airstrip One off cottages to finish worker in 3 turns instead of 4 (not done yet)
- Pink Dot 3 turns (at end of this turn) from finishing settler

Turn 90 (turn 1):
- both workers move onto Marble, start Quarry
- Pink Dot 2 turns from finishing settler

Turn 91 (turn 2):
- quarry
- Airstrip One 1 turn away from worker
- swap tech to Priesthood (1)
- Pink Dot 1 turn from finishing settler

Turn 92 (turn 3):
- quarry finished
- PinkAirstrip One swaps to max shields (15/turn) at 1 food/turn deficit
Oracle needs 150 shields remaining
- Pink Dot finishes settler, starts Oracle (12 hammers max conf), 138 hammers left at end of turn

Turn 93 (turn 4):
- road finished, marble connected to capital
- Airstrip One still at max shields, gets double value (30 shields/turn)
- Finish two pre-chopped forests for 20 x 2 = 40 shields each
A1 Oracle needs 135 shields remaining, becomes 55 after chopping
- Pink Dot -> Oracle (24 hammers with marble), 114 hammers left at end of turn

Turn 94 (turn 5):
Dual workers @ SF move onto Forest
A1 Oracle needs 25 shields remaining
- Pink Dot -> Oracle (24 hammers), 90 hammers left at end of turn

Turn 95 (turn 6):
Dual workers @ SF move into Forest @ PT
A1 Oracle complete!
- Pink Dot -> Oracle (24 hammers), 66 hammers left at end of turn

Turn 96 (turn 7):
Dual workers @ SF chop Forest
- Pink Dot -> Oracle (24 hammers), 42 hammers left at end of turn

Turn 97 (turn 8):
Forest chop to PD Oracle (40 hammers)
Pink Dot -> Oracle (24 hammers)

Turn 98 (turn 9):
PD Oracle completes

[ruff_hi]

The above PD track is slow because max hammers is 12 and it takes too long to get the 2 SF workers back to PD.

Re the second worker at capital ... yeah - there is a worker at A1 sitting on a forest (1NW of city). He can move to PD in 3 turns (ending on forest hill) and be ready to chop on T4 (marble on line) or he can move to forest beside river and chop on T3.

Assuming worker @ A1 moves to PD now ...

Turn 92 (turn 3):
worker moves to forest hill
PD finishes settler, starts Oracle (12 hammers max conf), 138 hammers left at end of turn

Turn 93 (turn 4):
chop 1
PD 24 to Oracle, 114 to go

Turn 94 (turn 5):
chop 2
PD 24 to Oracle, 90 to go

Turn 95 (turn 6):
chop 3 - 40 hammers to Oracle
PD 24 to Oracle, 26 to go

Turn 96 (turn 7):
PD 24 to Oracle, 2 to go (1 friggen hammer)
PD Oracle complete with whip

[ruff_hi]

Summary

Oracle complete T94 at A1 (with whip)
Oracle complete T95 at A1 (no whip)
Oracle complete T97 at PD (with whip)
Oracle complete T98 at PD (no whip)

Edit: forget this - this is now out of date.

[mostly-harmless]

Craziness!
Prove me wrong but don't complain if Imperio finishes Oracle in two turns grabs Aesthetics and gets a head start on the Great Lib while we put A1 on max hammers or prechopping forests at PD.

mh

[sunrise089]

Originally posted by mostly-harmless
Craziness!
Prove me wrong but don't complain if Imperio finishes Oracle in two turns grabs Aesthetics and gets a head start on the Great Lib while we put A1 on max hammers or prechopping forests at PD.

mh

How does this slow us down? Just the one turn for Priesthood? I get how them Oracle'ing Aesthetics speed them up, but us going for Oracle ourselves makes that LESS likely, not more.

@Ruff - I'll take the Turn 94 option - Cap w/ Whip.

[ruff_hi]

oh - here is another option ...

PD swaps off the settler before it finishes so that it puts 1 turn of production (10 or 12 hammers) to Oracle to finish it 1 turn earlier.

[Dreylin]

oh - here is another option ...

PD swaps off the settler before it finishes so that it puts 1 turn of production (10 or 12 hammers) to Oracle to finish it 1 turn earlier.

So we delay the Settler by the time it takes to build Oracle? Not sure I like that idea.

Is there any overflow due from the Settler that would provide the 1hammer extra, or is that already factored in?

Also:

A1 at its current size of 5 (assuming we do not get additional happy when beelining Literature) can produce 16 hammers (at -1fpt which should be ok for a small period of time.
With Marble connected that gives 32 hammers per turn.

Further assuming we can get 5 forests in the BFC pre chopped and can chop them down one per turn (with two workers).
Per chop with Marble we get 40 hammers.

So Literature comes in and we are done 5 turns later:

turn - city - chop - sum/turn - sum
0 ----32 ----40 -------72
1 ----32 ----40 -------72 ------72
2 ----32 ----40 -------72 -----144
3 ----32 ----40 -------72 -----216
4 ----32 ----40 -------72 -----288
5 ----0 ------0 --------0 -----360 (350 needed)

Can we keep up with this timeframe if we whip/use forests at A1?

[ruff_hi]

Originally posted by ruff_hi

Turn 95 (turn 6):
Dual workers @ SF move into Forest @ PT
A1 Oracle complete!
- Pink Dot -> Oracle (24 hammers), 66 hammers left at end of turn

I checked the whip option in the war game and the number of population required to whip is the number to complete the build BEFORE current turn production and forest chops. 1 population will provide 15 hammers to a wonder, 30 with marble. Thus we can whip 2 populations for 60 hammers. If we put 1 turn into the Oracle at PD prior to settler finishing (10 hammers and work the farm), then ...

Turn 95 (turn 6):
Dual workers @ SF move into Forest @ PT
A1 Oracle complete!
- Pink Dot -> Oracle (24 hammers), 56 hammers left at end of turn

Turn 96 (turn 7):
Whip Oracle for 2 pop @ PD

Turn 97 (turn 8):
Oracle complete at PD

Is there any overflow due from the Settler that would provide the 1hammer extra, or is that already factored in?

Good point. Yes, there will be some extra food / hammers (food is auto converted into hammers) that will flow into the Oracle that will take care of that 2 hammers.

[ruff_hi]

Originally posted by Sullla
Turn 93:
- road finished, marble connected to capital
- Airstrip One still at max shields, gets double value (30 shields/turn)
- Finish two pre-chopped forests for 20 x 2 = 40 shields each
Oracle needs 135 shields remaining, becomes 55 after chopping

Turn 94
Oracle needs 25 shields remaining

Turn 95
Oracle complete!

At capital ...

Edit: this is wrong as Sullla points out below ... see new post 2 posts below.


[s]Turn 93
Oracle needs 135 at start or 5 populations - cannot whip

Turn 94
Oracle needs 55 at start or 2 populations - can whip

Turn 95
Oracle complete if whipped

Turn 96
Oracle complete if not whipped[/s]

[ruff_hi]

New Summary

Finished at A1 on T95 if whipped (2 pop)
Finished at A1 on T96 if no whip
Finished at PD on T97 if whipped (2 pop)

Ok, I'm done now. Will let someone else have a say .

[Sullla]

We'd prefer to build the Oracle at Pink, all things considered... but the builds really line up better to do it at Airstrip One. That's where the two workers are, and we don't want to pull Pink off of its settler. I wouldn't be willing to risk another 2-3 turns just to complete it in Pink either.

Ruff, are you sure about that last post, the one right above me? I worked the math about three times, and I'm pretty sure that we still finish the Oracle in the capital on T95 with no whipping:

15 shields on T92 (150 remaining)
30 shields + 40 (chop) + 40 (chop) on T93 (135 remaining)
30 shields on T94 (25 remaining)
Finish T95

One final thing to keep in mind: if we would get the Oracle, the obvious tech to grab is Currency. Extra trade routes will substantially increase our research, and get us to Literature faster. This easily makes up for the slight delay in researching Priesthood, and burning two forests in chops at the capital.

EDIT: I see what Ruff did. He didn't add Airstrip One's production from T93! That adds another 30 shields on that turn. We actually finish the wonder on T95, with no need to whip - and no possibility of whipping, actually, based on the math as Ruff explained it.