Turnplayer Thread #2.

[regoarrarr]

Originally posted by Sullla


Ask and ye shall receive!

100% science: 20 beakers/turn, -4gpt
90% science: 18 beakers/turn, -2gpt
80% science: 16 beakers/turn, 0gpt
70% science: 14 beakers/turn, +2gpt
60% science: 12 beakers/turn, +4gpt
50% science: 10 beakers/turn, +6gpt
0% science: 0 beakers/turn, +16gpt

We are currently researching at 100% science, losing 4gpt with 14g in the bank. In other words, we will be out of cash in another three turns. Sailing has 110/143 beakers invested, and will be finished in two more turns with considerable overrun.

Since we have no libraries/markets, I believe it doesn't make a difference at the moment what percentage we choose to run. It's an entirely linear progression. Still, it's a good idea to get in the habit of running the numbers to see what's most efficient.

And also, because of the free beaker and the 1.2 multiplier, isn't binary science still the way to go. Aren't our numbers actually:

100% science: 25 beakers/turn, -4gpt (20 + 1 ) * 1.2, rounded down
90% science: 22 beakers/turn, -2gpt
80% science: 20 beakers/turn, 0gpt
70% science: 18 beakers/turn, +2gpt
60% science: 15 beakers/turn, +4gpt
50% science: 13 beakers/turn, +6gpt
0% science: 0 beakers/turn, +16gpt

Or did you already take that into account with your numbers above?

[ruff_hi]

Originally posted by sunrise089 Right, but we will have a library soon, so isn't it in our best interest to bank cash now to run at 100% for as long as possible once we get the library?

As I look at the maths - running at 100% isn't the issue. Making sure that you generate beakers in multiples of 4 is the issue (only in cities with Libraries).

Say you are break even at 80%, -4gpt at 100% and +16gpt at 0%. Also, that you generate 20 (pre library) beakers at 80% and 25 at 100%. Then, it is actually more efficient to run at 80%.

5 turns @80% = floor(20 * 1.25) * 5 = 125
1 turn @0% and 4 turns @100% = floor(25 * 1.25) * 4 = 124

1 stupid beaker - for how much heart ache.

PS: Shouldn't we take this riveting conversation to another thread ... maybe the 'Anally Retentive' thread?

[Sullla]

Nah, keep the conversation going here. Turnplayer thread is pretty much a catch-all for whatever happens to be the issue of the moment.

regoarrarr, to answer your five questions...

a) Iron Working costs 286 beakers, and we have 63 beakers invested. At our current research rate (20/turn before crazy pre-req modifiers get added), it will take 9 turns to finish the tech.

We also need two more turns to finish Sailing, although we will get some overrun from the tech.

b) C&D very strongly suggests (like 99%) that Banana just researched Iron Working two turns ago. But since we don't have contact with them, it won't affect our research time.

c) Last I heard, PAL said they were ~20 turns away from Alphabet. We expect to finish our side of the deal in ~12-15 turns. (Science will slow down when we have to run all-cash for a turn, and will also go down when Cape Copper is founded.)

d/e) Can both be handled with a screenshot of the capital:



I also believe that the overflow bug was corrected in a patch a long time ago. Players were abusing that one to get huge discounts on expensive techs by researching cheap ones with massive overflow.

Yes, our actual research is (20+1) * 1.2 = FLOOR (25.2) = 25. I did the simplified version to save time.

OK, I think that's everything. So... what's the most efficient way to run our research right now?

[sunrise089]

I propose zero science until the library is done, with the caveat that we run science as high as necessary to get IW + Sailing the same turn PAL gets Alphabet. I think in practice that would be like 12 turns at zero tech and 8 turns at 100%, or something like that.

[sooooo]

That's crazy, sailing gets us a trade route with cape copper. And when it is settled we may be able to get foreign coastal trade routes with civs that have writing. I'd keep the rate high enough to get sailing in 2 turns. If this was my game I'd put the slider at 80% and forget about it.

[regoarrarr]

Yes - I think we all agree that we should keep the slider at 100% for the next 2 turns to get Sailing.

But after that, I agree with sunrise

[ruff_hi]

We cannot build a library until after we have traded for writing with PAL. We cannot trade writing with PAL until they have finished Alphabet. We have at approx 20 turns of no library benefits. I say we should keep teching as fast as we can until we have IW and then reconsider.

Maybe 0% at that point knowing that a library will be about 8(?) turns away.

However - if this period of zero tech means that we delay Monarchy and the removal of our happy cap - then it probably isn't worth it.

Sure, 0% for a while will mean 100% for longer - but it could mean an overall delay of the next tech - depending on how long it takes us to get our Library up and running.

[Sullla]

I dunno... running zeros science for a dozen turns in the early game seems like a really crazy strategy to me. I would NEVER do that in a private game. Gold just isn't worth all that much, not compared to food, shields, and beakers.

I'd need to hear a much more persuasive argument before making such a drastic swap. For the moment, we'll finish out Sailing at 100%, and then can decide the best way to proceed with Iron Working.

[regoarrarr]

Yeah that sounds good to me. And actually, looking at the numbers up there (which will of course change once CC is founded), whether we do break even at 80%, or alternate turns of 70 and 90, or do one turn of zero with 8 turns of 100%, it all makes it to 20 bpt.

Head over to the tech discussion thread to talk about what we want to research next.

[sunrise089]

Originally posted by Sullla
Gold just isn't worth all that much, not compared to food, shields, and beakers.

No one is proposing lowing shields or food to get gold, right?

I don't understand why zero science would be so scary. We all know the reasons why binary research is slightly beneficial anyways (more gold in the bank, chance other civs will research techs and therefore provide tech discounts). So the only real question is whether we want to delay techs in the short term for more beakers in the long term. After all, we WILL get more beakers by running higher science percentages when we have more science multipliers. Now of course we don't want to delay techs that benefit us more in the short term than a few more beakers down the road (sailing is one such example). But I can certainly see us banking gold if we know a library will complete a few turns before we will finish a tech. In simplest terms, all I'm proposing is:

Tech X takes 10 turns to research at 50% science, the sustainable rate.
We have zero gold in the bank, so we opt to run 0% of 5 turns and 100% for five turns, in case we get a random event or something. We get the tech just as quickly.
Now assume instead we were five turns away from a library. We do the same 5 turns at zero, 5 turns at 100%, but now we produce more beakers than had we run 50% for 10 turns.

Is the above incorrect?

[mostly-harmless]

If we decide on going for Monarchy next, we can use the turns between finishing IW and getting the PAL trade / library built to research some cheap religious stuff we need for Monarchy anyway.

mh

[ruff_hi]

Originally posted by sunrise089 ... assume instead we were five turns away from a library. We do the same 5 turns at zero, 5 turns at 100%, but now we produce more beakers than had we run 50% for 10 turns.

Is the above incorrect?

Yes - I think it is correct. And for 5 turns - it makes some sense to me. 10 turns? Probably too long. I guess it depends on if it delays us getting to Monarchy.

[regoarrarr]

Well, it's too bad that we won't have like 3-4 weeks to crunch the numbers and figure it out.....

[sunrise089]

I agree Ruff - it depends on whether it actually delays us (a pure single-tech binary scenario doesn't delay a tech, since you run 100% as soon as you can sustain that through the tech's completion) getting something we actually want. Monarchy seems to be needed, so we don't want to push back its ultimate completion date. Useless religious prereqs though should be researched in the most beaker-efficient manner, since I don't think we actually need to get those techs sooner.

Example: 50% sustainable research, useless tech 1 on turn 5, useless tech 2 on turn 10, library comes in, desirable tech on turn 20.

Binary example: 0% research for 10 turns, library comes in, 100% tech produces useless tech 1 on turn 13, useless tech 2 on turn 15, desirable tech on turn 19.

The binary example delays the cheap techs but makes the expensive tech arrive faster due to more beakers being invested with the library modifier. Anytime a tech doesn't offer us direct benefit (or can't be taken advantage of right away) it seems like a good idea to delay it and stockpile gold if we will be increasing the science multiplier in the near future.

[regoarrarr]

Might we able to tech-trade with a civ or two once we get Alphabet for some of the religious branch? Again, we can decide for sure once we get a bit closer, but if we run all cash after we discover IW, then we can trade for some of the religious line and go all science on Monarchy