Team Info and Contacts - Rabbits

[mostly-harmless]

Remember how we managed to get several important tech trades from neighbors that were about to attack us? If we had been throwing insults at them at that time, we wouldn't have gotten anything from them. So never write off diplomacy.

I believe it was very much established, that despite bad reputation, bad diplo climate (Templars BA, anyone) teams are going to jump on a tech trade if they see any benefit. That whole tech trading between us and Imp and Tem, went ahead in virtually no time and was not accompanied by any diplo talk iirc.

Also, being polite is just better in general and insulting your opponents is unsportsmanlike and immature. You'd never insult your competitors during a chess tournament, or during a sports game (if I am not mistaken), so the only reason insults are acceptable in multiplayer CIV is that Internet is a rude place in general, but RB is better that that, so let's show it in our communication.

That comparison is not entirely valid, as there is very little chance of betrayal and backstabbing in sports and chess.
Insults in world politics on the other hand are going on all the time.

mh

[sunrise089]

Remember how we managed to get several important tech trades from neighbors that were about to attack us? If we had been throwing insults at them at that time, we wouldn't have gotten anything from them. So never write off diplomacy.

Also, being polite is just better in general and insulting your opponents is unsportsmanlike and immature. You'd never insult your competitors during a chess tournament, or during a sports game (if I am not mistaken), so the only reason insults are acceptable in multiplayer CIV is that Internet is a rude place in general, but RB is better that that, so let's show it in our communication.

I remain totally unconvinced the bolded passage is true. Remember, the converse is totally false - civs have traded with civs when they have no in-character diplo reason to do so.

I also think people act impolite in sports all the time. I'm a big F1 racing fan, which is supposedly a lot classier and more civilized than US-based NASCAR. Yet drivers give each other the finger on the TV feed all the time. Those same drivers however will be the best of friends if they later join the same team. Why? Because just like in real life and civ, people can say whatever they want and generally not suffer consequences because other people will pursue their best interests.

[mostly-harmless]

I want to comment on this one more time.

Also, being polite is just better in general and insulting your opponents is unsportsmanlike and immature. You'd never insult your competitors during a chess tournament, or during a sports game (if I am not mistaken), so the only reason insults are acceptable in multiplayer CIV is that Internet is a rude place in general, but RB is better that that, so let's show it in our communication.

I believe you mix up two different things here, Zeviz.
One thing is RB's high standards regarding politeness, fairness and general good behaviour. And you will find me stepping in for those values like you do.
I believe, we have shown a very civilised behaviour in our posts during the organization phase and while discussing off topic or on ruling issues in the general forums. (We might have to censor some of our remarks regarding the map maker once the team forums go public, though)

On the other hand we are playing a game simulating the rise and fall and interaction of civilisations over the course of history. Diplomacy is part of this game. Insulting and taunting your enemy is not off the table in this game of diplomacy. Look at the diplo screens available in CIV. The statements accompanying war declarations are not polite. Imagine Civ5 ships with a diplo model that does not need out of game communication but is so complete that it includes all possible options and dialogs of diplomacy. I ensure you insulting your opponent will be an option there. (Have a look at Europa Universalis for an example of insults being a core part of the diplo model). Now, we have never decided that we will roleplay a turn-the-other-cheek-ignore-the-multiple-daggers-in-the-back-always-be-polite civ in this particular game. After all we will have no problem with razing cities, slaughtering hundreds of thousands of civilians while doing so or spying on our opponents or slaving our own people to become military units which we send into their certain deaths on the frontline.

So I believe "unsportsmanlike", "immature" and "RB is better than that" are wrongly applied here.

mh

[Zeviz]

Admittedly, I have no CIV multiplayer experience, so if insulting opponents is considered part of the game, I can't object. I was thinking more about MMORPGs, where some people seem to have nothing but insults in their vocabulary. If everybody else doesn't have a problem with insulting opponents, I was wrong in that post and withdraw objections to your messages.

And I wasn't suggesting to turn the other cheek all the time. (Or any time for that matter.) I just don't like insults whether directed at me or at others.

[ruff_hi]

I don't find "may you rot in your hutches" insulting. I think it accurately reflects my (the teams?) frustration / annoyance with The Rabbits at this point in time. If our relations improve, we can easily say ...

"Sorry about the Hutch comment".

At which time, I expect they will say ...

"No problem - it was actually pretty funny!"

[sooooo]

Wait, no one actually send the "may you rot in your hutches" email did they?

*checks gmail account*

No, no one sent it. We shouldn't send it either. As far as I know, no one has actively insulted the other teams to their faces.

[Zeviz]

I still think we should send this:

Rabbits,

When we first met, you were in danger of being crushed by PAL, so we immediately gifted you Archery, which saved your skin. (While Imperio didn't gift you any techs in your hour of greatest need.) Now you pay us back by allying with our enemies and closing borders to us. Is this how you show the gratitude for helping you survive to this point?

Team RB

[ruff_hi]

We all know that Rabbits are a lost cause. Why not just express our disappointment ...

Rabbits,

When we first met, you were in danger of being crushed by PAL, so we immediately gifted you Archery, which saved your skin. (While Imperio didn't gift you any techs in your hour of greatest need.) Now you pay us back by allying with our enemies and closing borders to us. We are very disappointed in you.

Team RB

Honestly, we have nothing to gain from The Wabbits and plenty to lose (Rabbits complain publically that TRB said our hutches stink!). Lets just send this off and then ignore them.

[mostly-harmless]

Sounds good.

mh

[Zeviz]

Either version is fine, as long as we send something.

[Sullla]

I would like to see us send either Zeviz's or Ruff's message (both are essentially the same). Not the angry one proposed earlier. It's not a matter of trying to be above sending insults or anything like that; from a pure perspective of personal gain, we don't benefit in any way from closing off the avenues of communication. Better to make our anger and disappointment felt in a responsible manner. I think Zeviz's message said it best.

Rabbits,

When we first met, you were in danger of being crushed by PAL, so we immediately gifted you Archery, which saved your skin. (While Imperio didn't gift you any techs in your hour of greatest need.) Now you pay us back by allying with our enemies and closing borders to us. Is this how you show the gratitude for helping you survive to this point?

Team RB

[sooooo]

Email in Sullla's post sent.

[Dreylin]

Am logged in ATM ... Rabbits have offered Open Borders with no message.

Should I accept?

[sunrise089]

Err....my sense is "no." Doesn't the war block trade routes to the other continent anyways?

[Dreylin]

I rejected. There was no message with it, and nothing in the e-mail account.

I think only they would get the benefit, so I say no unless they send us a damn good explanation for why they cancelled in the first place!