Team Info and Contacts - Banana

[regoarrarr]

I'm all for giving htem all the techs and/ or resources we need if we can get iron now, and if we can get machinery too, then bonus.

[sunrise089]

Sounds good Swiss.

[Swiss Pauli]

email sent:

Hello again,

Further to our in-game chat, we'd like tp propose the following deal: Monarchy, Aesthetics and Literatute for Machinery and Iron for 10 turns. Obviously, we can't take delivery of Machinery for a while, but we feel it will be more useful to us than Compass in the medium term. We'd propose to trade you Monarchy on turn the same turn you give us Iron (preferably T113 if possible), then Aesthetics 5 turns later, and Literature on the final turn that you supply us with Iron.

We'd like feedback on our proposal as soon as you can give it. We'll also be in touch over the next couple of days with the idea of exchanging basic information about the situation on our respective continents, longer term trade possibilities, etc.

Cheers,

Swiss Pauli

[Swiss Pauli]

That's it for me tonight. Can someone from North America check the inbox in a few hours, and negotiate/make the in-game moves if needed.

[Swiss Pauli]

rompi coglione

email received

Realms Beyond Team,

I am sorry that I was not able to respond to your proposal until now. With about 2 hours left in the turn, I don't think we will be able to finalize anything before the clock runs out. However, I am certain that we will be able to come to some sort of agreement by the end of Turn 114.

Your proposal as written seems to devalue the short-term infusion of our only source of Iron by including a tech trade of nearly-equal research value. I have no doubt that your team is savvy enough to take full advantage of your temporary holding and will stand to reap huge gains from a military standpoint. When you add your opportunity for Macemen from Machinery, I guess I am surprised that the offer is a bit light.

I do understand that you may not have an immediate need for Compass; we too could actually carry on for the moment without the techs you are offering, but are also interested in working out an arrangement that is to the mutual and long-term benefit of both teams. Please tell me a bit more about your play for Philosophy --- was my good-faith information helpful to you being able to eclipse the current 4-turn discovery rate? Why was this tech taken off the table?

Anyway, here is my counter-offer:

Iron (10 turns) for Monarchy (Turn 114)
Compass for Aesthetics and Literature (Turn 117)
Machinery for Philosophy (upon your discovery of Metal Casting)

Even the above deal seems akin to "cutting me own throat," but I am willing to do this in the interest of future cooperation between our teams. Please discuss with your team and get back to me as soon as you get a chance.

Kind Regards,
Donovan Zoi

[Swiss Pauli]

I'll send an acknowledgement directly.

As I see it, our options are to go for Compass and Iron for Aesthetics and Monarchy, or to call his bluff and drop the Iron from the deal altogether.

re: no Philo - we say that we couldn't get anyone else to trade for Philo, even though we'd have it before our rival, and as he well knows form his Machinery trades, it's not sensible to get only one tech in return.

I favour calling his bluff, and dropping the deals for now. If we seem able to live without Iron then I'm sure his price will go down.

[sooooo]

I don't think our offer was that bad. Throwing in philosophy for compass to that deal is ridiculous.

Compass is fairly useless unless civs are worried about harbours. We have no need of optics, and astronomy is a long way off.

I think we should state that (a) we only need iron because our copper was sabotaged. We need it for insurance against our sabateurs, not to "gain great military advantage". We could reduce the deal to six turns I guess to compromise (state we can trade it back to them in case they do not know how to do this).

And (b) We should explain that we have a GS arriving and that we were wondering what we could get for it. I think we should state that we have decided to use it for an academy and that philosophy is off the table.

We should also reaffirm that they are getting some useful techs with nothing in return for us for a period of turns. Monarchy now would let them start on feudalism immediately. Literature would get them access to the national epic. Aesthetics is a route to drama etc.

So in summary, I think we should improve our offer in the following ways:

1. Iron for only 6 turns (or however we calculate it would take us to reconnect our copper).
2. We could give them all the techs as soon as we can.
3. We could lend them marble when they decide they want to build the national or heroic epics.

We should state for certain that we are not interested in trades involving compass or philosophy.

[mostly-harmless]

As you know I am strongly in favor to get Iron to us now, but I feel that the proposed deal is too much. In terms of beakers we would "buy" Iron for 715beakers (Aesthetics & Literature). I am also doubting that we will bulb Philosophy with our 2nd GS after someone else has already discovered it.

We have a commitment to HBR. That will come in on T116. Then we go Construction I assume for Elephants which will take until T121. Only then can we consider going for Metal Casting (ETA T127).

So no deal for the iron.

mh

[Swiss Pauli]

I think we should state that (a) we only need iron because our copper was sabotaged. We need it for insurance against our sabateurs, not to "gain great military advantage". We could reduce the deal to six turns I guess to compromise (state we can trade it back to them in case they do not know how to do this).

I'm strongly against mentioning the sabotage. I mentioned a 'temporary supply problem' in the chat I had. If we mention sabotage, the price will go up, not down because we can't stop the sabotage, so the value of a traded supply is greater than if it was a preventable pillage. I'm not keen to lie outright and pretend copper was pillage, but we could do so if needed.

Also, we are doing this for military advantage, so we should focus on price: i.e. ours is fair(ish), his is way OTT.

And (b) We should explain that we have a GS arriving and that we were wondering what we could get for it. I think we should state that we have decided to use it for an academy and that philosophy is off the table.

Agree that Philo is off the table, but we don't need to tell him about the Academy.

We should also reaffirm that they are getting some useful techs with nothing in return for us for a period of turns. Monarchy now would let them start on feudalism immediately. Literature would get them access to the national epic. Aesthetics is a route to drama etc.

I think NE is the strongest argument here as he'll soon have Marble, but even that is questionable as we don't know enough about Bananaland. I assume he's tied up a couple of deals for Compass, so he can't jump to Feudalism for a while.

So in summary, I think we should improve our offer in the following ways:

1. Iron for only 6 turns (or however we calculate it would take us to reconnect our copper).
2. We could give them all the techs as soon as we can.

Agreed. I think we're 5 turns from reconnecting Copper but that's off the top of my head.

[Sullla]

We should stop obsessing about getting iron from Banana. Like Swiss said, we will probably have copper reconnected in 5 turns, and we'll have Horseback Riding tech in what, 3 more turns? So we're only without a key resource for the next three turns, and we can simply build archer/walls in Cape Town during that period.

The deal we need to work on with Banana is getting Machinery from them. Screw Compass, we'll pick it up if we need it, but it's not important right now. (Yes, I am fully aware that we need Metal Casting before trading for Machinery. See the Templar diplo thread!) Right now, the key thing is to work on improving relations. Talk about potential resource trades, talk about working together against PAL (they are fools if they don't see what's going to happen to them after PAL finishes Rabbits, but then again, I do think Banana are fools!) and so on. We could even float some three-way emails with Templars and Banana about working together against PAL and Imperio. Even if we don't believe that, it's worth floating the idea to sow mistrust between PAL/Banana and Imperio/Templars.

Long story short: Banana wants way too much for their iron, and rightly so. It's not worth it. Work on improving relations and lining up a Machinery deal instead.

[sooooo]

I'm OK with taking iron off the table if everyone else is.

Agree that Philo is off the table, but we don't need to tell him about the Academy.

The reason I think to mention the GS is that otherwise they will be confused about why they cannot trade for philosophy. From their communication I get the feeling that they think we are currently researching the tech. I fear that if we don't explain this situation to them they will make a counter-offer involving philosophy.

I think NE is the strongest argument here as he'll soon have Marble, but even that is questionable as we don't know enough about Bananaland. I assume he's tied up a couple of deals for Compass, so he can't jump to Feudalism for a while..

They'll get compass in 4 turns now so I think the possibility to start on feudalism straight after is a good incentive too.

[Swiss Pauli]

Right now, the key thing is to work on improving relations. Talk about potential resource trades, talk about working together against PAL (they are fools if they don't see what's going to happen to them after PAL finishes Rabbits, but then again, I do think Banana are fools!) and so on.

I think Donovan (aka New Team Banana) is aware of the mess he inherited, and of the threat PAL poses. It's another question whether he will be able to resist an attack by them. We'll have to do our bit to see that he can, as he represents our best trading partner in the medium term: he won't feel threatened by us (Imperio & Templars), and we won't be 'feeding the hand that bites us' (PAL).

As to the current discussions, I would propose to decline his offer politely, mention the GS not being used for Philo, and reaffirm our initial deal, but offer the techs up front. Not sure he'll cave so easily, but it can't hurt to try.

Either way, I'd like to float the idea of him going Feud-Guilds, and us Paper-Edu. He gets the security of PRO LBs without delaying a key tech like Edu.

Ideally, I'd like to draft something tonight, so feedback would be greatly appreciated.

[Dreylin]

I agree with pretty-much everything SP just said.

[Zeviz]

I agree with Swiss. You can tell them that we only need Iron for 3-5 turns, so we aren't ready to give any techs for it, but can give them the benefit of techs like monarchy or hbr sooner.

[Swiss Pauli]

edit: email sent:

Hi Donovan,

Sorry for the delay in replying, there's been quite a lot going on over at Team RB in the last day or so.

As to your counter-proposal, we respect your position, but we feel the price you want for Iron is too high. For us, Iron would only be a short-term insurance policy to cover our temporary lack of metal, and, as such, the premium you are asking for is too large. Philosophy has been taken off the table because we have decided against using our Great Scientist to lightbulb this tech.

We would be happy to improve our original offer by giving you the techs over the first two turns of the deal. This would enable you to use your marble for National Epic. Let us know your thoughts on this.

Longer term, we would be interested in making an agreement that sees you research Feudalism and Guilds, and us research Paper and Education. Our research path is 1001 more beakers, but I'm sure we can find a way of balancing the deal. We hope that the security of protective Longbows without delaying your access to a key development tech like Education will make this an attractive proposal. We don't need a definitive answer straight away, but we like to know your initial impression about this idea.

Best Regards

Swiss

For those too lazy to check the thread, the tech we offer are Monarchy, Aesthetics, and Literature