Team Info and Contacts - Banana

[Swiss Pauli]

I agree, the current Banana player seems fairly competent, if not an expert. The previous management though, oy...

Whoever signed this was smoking some pungent weed. PAL went to war with Rabbits on T95, so this agreement was inked after the war was in place. Stupidity of the highest order imaginable. It was basically waving the white flag and saying, "go ahead PAL! We're going to let you completely dominate our continent! Have fun!"

I think that's a bit harsh: it was the current management who signed the deal with PAL! From the email, it seems he was tempted to strike at their border cities, but decided against it. I guess he figured that PAL would return the 'favour' with interest. I assume PAL arranging our meeting with Banana was a concession as part of the NAP, and Banana's got 50 turns to expand and tech himself into a position to resist any (inevitable?) attack from PAL.

[Sullla]

If that's true, it was an extremely short-sighted viewpoint. Good luck trying to defend your 5 cities against PAL's 15 cities when the inevitable attack comes.

[Swiss Pauli]

That's still a bit harsh, Sullla: taking on the big dog with a lame-duck civ like Banana was around T95 was not going to be an easy call. Anyway, what's done is done, and so I'll get to work on a draft to Banana tonight.

[sunrise089]

@Swiss - the entire discussion is academic, but imagine if Banana had taken a couple of cities. They would have made an enemy of PAL, but PAL will surely come for them anyways. On the other hand, it would be a weaker PAL, stronger Banana, and maybe even an intact Rabbits.

[Swiss Pauli]

I hope we can agree the main body of the email fairly quickly...

Hi Donovan,

Thanks for the quick reply!

To summarize the NAP: 40 turns from T115 (ending T155), renewing automatically for 20 turns if neither party has served notice to terminate by T145. Then a rolling NAP for 20 turns, renewing automatically after the 10th turn, if neither party has given notice.

Imperio - things are tricky right now: they won't renew our NAP and are building up their military (and running Vassalage). We can't be 100% sure we're the target, but we can't afford to be complacent, obviously. We would be prepared to help you meet them, but we would ask that you don't trade them Machinery until we have it. Speaking Spanish would help your communication with them (sadly we can't).

If you're researching Calendar next, then we'd like to trade it for Construction. What's your ETA on Calendar? We'll have Construction in three or four turns from now (T116).

It's hard to give an accurate figure from where we are, but city maintenance on Prince for 7-8 city shouldn't be too bad. But if things get a bit sticky then running REP Scientists in your core will help you tech well, even if you have to lower the research slider for a spell whilst you get your new cities up and running.

As to PAL's research, 'See Research' via Espionage requires 0.75 * (100 + PAL's EPs vs Banana), so, yes, you'll definitely have it for a while

Best Regards

Swiss Pauli

We could send this alone (after editing/approval), or we could include our answer to this if we can agree amongst ourselves quickly:

"I think I will be able to hold off on Drama (not Music, need Drama for Pavilions) for awhile so that our team can start on Feudalism."

Right them, team. Are we going to commit to Paper-Edu for Feud-Guilds-1k beakers?

I'm in favour, as I don't think we have a chance to pull off a similar deal with anyone else except PAL, and that would be counterproductive in the long run.

[sunrise089]

I would really love it if someone could answer the city maintenance question better. It makes us look good and costs nothing other than time. Otherwise the draft looks good.

[regoarrarr]

I will give the city maintenance question a try here

[Swiss Pauli]

If, like me, he's not a maths guy, then trying to be too specific on city maint - when we don't know the distances from the capital, nor the pop per city, nor the future trade route situation, nor the number of units he has - could lead to us spouting complex formulas that don't help him much.

I'd prefer to keep it general, but the first part should be rephrased 'It's hard to give an accurate figure without intimate knowledge of your land, but...'

[regoarrarr]

Okay - based on this thread

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=3932883&postcount=89

Here's a shot at estimating the city maintenance. As SP pointed out, it's impossible to guess at distance maintenance since we don't know where his capital is or where he wants to put his other cities.

Given Banana's pop at 8,7,5,3,1 from the most recent C&D thread

Their current numCities maintenance is 9.1 (not including any cities which might have courthouses). That's 1.6, 1.6, 1.4, 2.2, 2.2 for the cities in order. The last 2 get bitten by the "City Rank' fudge factor, which adds 1 to maintenance for a certain number of the cities with higher City Rank.

I tested 7 and 8 cities, both with no existing city population growth and with each city growing 1 pop. Num Cities maintenance ranged from 19.68 to 21.6.

So I think it's reasonable to say that the numCities maintenance for 2 additional cities will add about 10-12 more gpt. They would need to add the distance maintenance for those cities (which can be approximated by mousing over the maintenance costs of an existing city that is approximately the same distance away from the palace)

Also, if any of his cities have courthouses that would reduce things slightly.

[sunrise089]

I think we could tell him "before distance maintenance is factored in, we estimate the maintenance for 2 additional cities will add about 10-12 more gpt."

I don't think he would have asked if he didn't want something at least relatively specific.

[Swiss Pauli]

I think that would be fine.

[regoarrarr]

I might add the phrase "across the total of the empire" since it won't be just the costs in those new cities but the costs in the existing cities will be raised.

If you think it matters

[sooooo]

I'm fine with sending that email alone with the addition of the specific maintenence cost. We can discuss later trades later, since they are prompt with email replies.

[Swiss Pauli]

I'd like to send the email tonight, so here's the latest draft:

Hi Donovan,

Thanks for the quick reply!

To summarize the NAP: 40 turns from T115 (ending T155), renewing automatically for 20 turns if neither party has served notice to terminate by T145. Then a rolling NAP for 20 turns, renewing automatically after the 10th turn, if neither party has given notice.

Imperio - things are tricky right now: they won't renew our NAP and are building up their military (and running Vassalage). We can't be 100% sure we're the target, but we can't afford to be complacent, obviously. We would be prepared to help you meet them, but we would ask that you don't trade them Machinery until we have it. Speaking Spanish would help your communication with them (sadly we can't).

If you're researching Calendar next, then we'd like to trade it for Construction. What's your ETA on Calendar? We'll have Construction in three or four turns from now (T116).

It's hard to give an accurate figure without intimate knowledge of your land, but before distance maintenance is factored in, we estimate the maintenance for 2 additional cities will cost around 10-12 gpt across your empire. Should things get a bit tough economically, running REP Scientists in your core will help you tech well, even if you have to lower the research slider for a spell whilst you get your new cities up and running.

As to PAL's research, 'See Research' via Espionage requires 0.75 * (100 + PAL's EPs vs Banana), so, yes, you'll definitely have it for a while

Best Regards

Swiss Pauli

[mostly-harmless]

Great!

mh