Our Civ and Leader

[Zeviz]

I have no MP experience, so I can only say that I also wouldn't want an early rush, because that might create diplomatic difficulties later. However, somebody might try it against us, so we should be ready to defend from it.

[Compromise]

I confess that I've only just now been catching up on all these threads (my subscriptions here at apolyton were in woeful disarray), so I might have missed this but...has our RB team decided on a list of 5 leaders it would prefer for this one?

Also, @Kylearan I'm curious to know what the "great diplomat" (maybe not an exact quote from your post) did to help your team in the other demogame.

My default approach toward diplomacy would likely come from game theory: think of this as a kind of iterated Prisoner's Dilemma game where the "tit-for-tat" is a simple strategy but often a winner. (Explanation available upon request.)

[Kylearan]

Hi,

Originally posted by Compromise
Also, @Kylearan I'm curious to know what the "great diplomat" (maybe not an exact quote from your post) did to help your team in the other demogame.

Essentially, he maintained good relations as long as possible with as many teams as possible. Before he sent any official letter, he would post it in the private forum for discussion. The letters were always very polite and positive, and yet still right down to the point. He would also chat with key players from other teams from time to time, including some personal, non-game stuff in the conversation to build up personal relations. I think other teams thought he (and thus, our whole team) could be trusted. And, contrary to other teams, our diplomatic channels were always active, and fast-responding.

It's hard to pinpoint what exactly made him successful, but we all think he did play a major role in our success. At least it allowed us to be the first team to declare war and eliminate one team completely and still not be enemy number one for the rest of the world. Even now, as we're attacking a second team, do we have an ally left... There were other factors involved of course, like always doing trades favoring our trading partners, but the other teams never communicated as much as we did, thanks to General_W.

My default approach toward diplomacy would likely come from game theory: think of this as a kind of iterated Prisoner's Dilemma game where the "tit-for-tat" is a simple strategy but often a winner.

I'm not sure the Prisoner's Dilemma applies here, as (as far as I remember) it assumes an infinite game length. If the game length is limited, the egotists might have an edge if they reveal themselves late enough. But tit-for-tat is a solid base to start from, I agree.

-Kylearan

[Swiss Pauli]

Time to start the serious deabte on leaders. It looks like we'll have to nominate 5 in order of preference. We had some good arguments in favour of the creative civs:

Zara (CRE/ORG)

Willem (CRE/FIN)

Pericles (CRE/PHI)

Sury (CRE/EXP)

Gliga's cheap courthouses and beefed-up axes might make up for his PRO trait.

Hatty's SPI will be a bit less useful in diplo, but it's always a useful trait.

Cathy's IMP might help in the early land-grab, but otherwise it's not very exciting.

Kublai's AGG will be useful for fighting, which is bound to happen at some point.

Louis' IND will give us cheap forges and Wonders, and in BtS his UU has a shelf-life.


I think Willem will be an extremely popular choice, so I only think he'll be worth including as our first choice.

Finally, this doesn't mean we have to choose a CRE civ. If a better argument for another leader is presented, I don't have any problem going with that choice. However, it'll need to be a very strong argument to outweigh the benefits of free early culture, and cheap libraries!

[Sullla]

I'm a huge fan of the Creative trait, especially for MP; it was already good in Civ4, and then Firaxis gave it another (unneeded!) boost with the cheap libraries in Beyond the Sword. Zara Yaqob especially is a nice choice, with about a billion different cheap buildings from Creative/Organized pairing.

I'd like to request we not play as Willem, if only because EVERYONE is going to be requesting the Dutch. We can be more inventive than that.

Here's a wildcard idea to throw out there: take an Industrious civ. Everyone downplays this trait, because on high-difficulty single player the AI is going to build most of the wonders anyway. Yet in MP, sometimes you'll have major wonders getting ignored, if only out of habit. Maybe it's not powerful enough to be worth consideration, but I thought I would throw the idea out there.

Regarding Kylearan and Compromise's diplomacy posts... I've never played the Avalon Hill game Diplomacy, but I have read dozens of different AARs posted on the Internet (it's a fascinating game to watch). One thing that proves true over and over again is that the most communicative players/teams always have the most success. Talk to everyone constantly, even those with whom you have little action going on, especially if you can do so in-character and/or include amusing anecdotes. The players/teams that usually fail and are eliminated are those that stayed silent and did nothing to make others like them. We at Realms Beyond should have a HUGE advantage in this regard, so we will want to make the most of it during the game!

All of us are pretty good at waxing verbose; for once that should come in handy.

[Zeviz]

If we are going to go for early wonders, Cre/Ind sounds like an exellent choise. (Is that Louis?)

Another military trait to consider is Charismatic. +1 for an essential early building is always good, and lower XP for promotions is a helpful boost. Are there any good Charismatic leaders? (Who is Cha/Fin, or Cha/Phil?)

And what about more Financial leaders?

[Compromise]

My MP experience is zero, but I have to say that I'd probably interpret a neighbor's Industrious trait as a bullseye....

[Swiss Pauli]

Originally posted by Compromise
My MP experience is zero, but I have to say that I'd probably interpret a neighbor's Industrious trait as a bullseye....

If one is not careful, yes, it would say 'kick me'. But if we took MC with Oracle for the production there wouldn't be any great reason to attack us. Pyramids would be a different story. One shouldn't forget the potential use of the AP as a shield, either.

In principle, Willem will be the most 'at-risk' in the early game to stop him getting too powerful, but I think it'll be a question of land quality as to who gets targeted for a rush.

[sunrise089]

@Zevis - Charismatic is clearly inferior to Creative in my humble opinion. As to the question of other financial leaders, the problem we'll face there is giving up creative, at least if we're not hoping to roll the dice of Willem.

I still like Zara, but Louis also seems like a decent choice. Remember though that BOTH of them have musket-based UUs, so a war in that period could be viable with either.

[sooooo]

Louis or Zara seem like good choices to me. Anyone creative really. Hatshepsut I think would be a nice too.

[Compromise]

First draft, first being most desirable:


1) Zara CRE/ORG - short and long-term traits
2) Louis CRE/IND - Try for Oracle and cheap forges
3) Hatty CRE/SPI - Frequent civic swapping might be nice
4) Pericles CRE/PHI - ???
5) Willem CRE/FIN - just to make five

[sunrise089]

Originally posted by Compromise
First draft, first being most desirable:


1) Zara CRE/ORG - short and long-term traits
2) Louis CRE/IND - Try for Oracle and cheap forges
3) Hatty CRE/SPI - Frequent civic swapping might be nice
4) Pericles CRE/PHI - ???
5) Willem CRE/FIN - just to make five

QFT!

[mostly-harmless]

Looks good.
mh

[Zeviz]

Looks good.

Since we are guaranteed not to get Willem when he isn't our #1 choice, should we include a more realistic #5?

[sunrise089]

@Zevis - I say definitely not. In the unlikely event that all 5 of our choices are picked by other teams in spots higher than ours, and we loose the lottery on ties, I'd like to know it and be able to pick a new leader based on that information (for example, we'd know there were no aggressive civs) rather than pick someone we don't really want merely to fill the spot.