SOCIAL ENGINEERING/GOVERNMENT (ver2.1): Hosted by Bell

[Maniac]

Harel :

All your choices are balanced on their own, its just when you begin to make combinations that it becomes unbalanced.
BTW, try to limit yourself to 2 bonuses and 1 big or 2 small penalties. For modern or near future 3 bonuses and 2 penalties.
The only exception is Economy. That should always have big penalties.

But I suggest we determine which choices we use and then give thim effects.

Oh about Morale and the senate. I found a solution, but it would delete something 'holy'.
ie + is good and - is bad (see diplomacy).

First notice I have renamed some things to avoid misunderstandings.

Centralization -> Production
Nationalism -> Reconnaissance (only problem is that giving Conviction (=religious defense) to that would be strange, have to find a new factor for that)
Corruption -> Organization, Efficiency?
Morale -> Experience

I would edit the Diplomacy factor.

+Diplomacy = more senate restrictions, more trade bonuses
-Diplomacy = no senate restrictions, worse relationships

What so you think about it, Diodorus?
Then Mercantilism (with India companies so trade bonuses) should have a diplomacy (rename it?) bonus and survival a negative (senate less important).

And yes Harel a senate is necessary. In SMAC there is no senate and I easily conquer the world on Free Market (~Civ2 Democracy).

Have you got ENCARTA 98? Look at Colbertism = extreme of Mercantilism/Protectionism. I would take this as an example to make a Mercantilism economy.
The only problem is that the different language versions of Encarta contain different things. Perhaps the Israelian version has less details about Colbertism.

I think you should unite Mercantilism and Colonization.

Yes I know perfectly that real Banking only existed since renaissance Italy. But there has to be an early +2 Eco economy. So I cheated a little and meant Roman argentarii and Greek trapezitai.
Perhaps just rename Banking to Capitalism?

Theben :

You're right. There has been a idea to let have each citizen a different flag. Then the population icon problem is solved.

Diodorus Sicilus :

Isn't this better :
Levee in mass
->Military Caste
-->Professional

You said yourself the military caste is supported by amateurs = simple mass soldiers. So I think Caste is the evolution of Levee.
And when in modern times a military (professional) caste disappears, the logic consequence would be Professional.

Drafts is ok. Harel, Reserve is an automatic consequence of having drafts and Volunteers is automatic if you have professional. I suggest some name changement.

I would also include a Mercenary option.

About that diplomacy bonus with monarchy.
In SMAC if you had eg Democracy you had better relationship with the Peacekeepers but worse with the Hive (communist).
I would extent this. With every civ that has the same goverment type as you, you have better relations.

So not only a diplomacy bonus between monarchies, but also between democracies etc...

Totally different gov types should give a diplomacy penalty.
So 'democratic' Napoleon against monarch Europe becomes possible.

I think you underestimate my factors. A lot of your special abilities of SE choices can be represented by one of my factors.

Oh Diodorus before I forget it. Harel and I had a little discussion about the Minoans. Can I ask some questions?

1) Had Minoa a big or small land army?
2) Had Minoa a big or small sea war fleet?
3) Did the Minoans trade with foreign nations and if so, with who?

Will continue to Harel and Diodorus later...
+ what choices I would add to the model.

[Theben]

"I firmly believe that most of the SE options should be heavily modified by Advances and Improvements and interact with them."-Da Sicilian

This is an idea that I've been bouncing around in my skull for a little while now. There needs to be a standardization of how SE effects, Improvements, and Technology interact. Several days (& 1 1/2 pages ago, yeesh!) I posted the beginning of this idea, this has minor changes:

ECONOMY would be a % that is added/subtracted from trade.
EFFICIENCY: A % reduction/increase in corruption(/waste?) in the city.
SUPPORT: Each city would have a base SUPPORT % (10-20%?). This % is subtracted (added if a - value) from the combined cost of all maintenance of units (units would have production & money support costs, possibly food too). SE choices increase/decrease the % modifier.
MORALE should different than the EXPERIENCE bonuses provided to units. Morale would be a small % bonus/penalty independent of Experience, but does combine with it to influence combat. FE, in SMAC, if you attack from a city w/ a Children's Creche you get +25% to attack, or you can have your % modifier's halved due to low Morale. This is Morale. Experience is the actual level of troop prepardness, training, etc. Experience affects att/def/LASS strength but Morale affects att/def/LASS AND Experience.
EXPERIENCE: Only a minimal bonus/penalty should be possible with this SE. Most experience should come from training (and this only to a point; maybe up to hardened as SMAC?) & actual combat (all the way to elite status). Again, a % would be applied as in SMAC, but it would be in smaller increments.
POLICE represents the controls you can exert on your people. It adds to your
happiness rating after all other happiness factors have been applied, but cannot increase happiness to a positive rating.
GROWTH is affected by happiness and many other factors, including food. It's a % increase/decrease in the city's growth rate.
ENVIRONMENT: A % reduction/increase in pollution output. At certain (+) levels it can add a % to trade from wilderness squares, however a Environment SE choice should also be accompanied by a loss of Economy & Growth.
SECURITY: A % bonus/penalty to enemy espionage missions that affect you.
ESPIONAGE: A % bonus/penalty to your espionage missions.
DIPLOMACY: A % bonus/penalty to your Reputation vs. other civs.
INDUSTRY is so powerful and easily abused in SMAC it should not have any SE modifiers. It may only be modified by technology & City Improvements, as a % bonus(/penalty?) to a city's Resource and Labor output.
RESEARCH: as SMAC, but with smaller % increments.
HAPPINESS as described by me elsewhere.

These are the Civil Effects-CE (plus any others that you may wish to add). Each +1 or -1 correlates to a +5% or -5% change in the total of the related CE, with the exception of Happiness, +/- 2%, because it is so powerful. At certain levels each category may have other special abilities (like immunity to spy bribes; PROBE in SMAC). How they interact:

Social Engineering: As per SMAC; each SE has +/- to several CEs.
Technology: Usually adds +'s to 1 or more CE's, but may penalize some.
City Improvements: Depends on method used. If like civ2, each building adds a large amount to it's CE(s); i.e. a marketplace would add +10 to Economy & Happiness (+50%). If like Star Trek: Birth of the Federation, each building adds +1, +2, or +3 (or -) to it's given category, and you build several buildings of each type in each city (obviously at a lower cost than now).

In the SE screen you could see your civ's overall effectiveness in each category (as SMAC). In addition, each city would need a button that would pop up a window, showing what it's own CE modifiers are.

I think we need to agree on what CE are, do, and interact as well as deciding on political, economic, and value choices. What sayeth thou?

[Harel]

Sigh...

Once more Maniac.
Mercantlism is a very small branch of Protectionism. It was used for only 150 years by two nations. Please read my previoys post about what Mercantlism is.

Merctanlism and colonization CAN'T be united: they worked in different time frames. Mercantlism was used by the france and england on one another in the 16th and 17th centaury, and colonization started in the late 17th till the early 20th centaury.

Colbertism was mercantlism. Mercantilsm is an economical "game", or "cheat", which was invernted by colbert.

Once more Maniac. Mercantlism is a very narrow field of economy and doesn't deserve to be included. I stick with:

Local markets -> Protectionism -> Colonization

BTW, can I kill you? You said, and I quote:

"the options you have are not balanced toghther...".

Well blimey man! How many times did I ask you to help me with giving real, balanced numbers? It's YOUR modifactor anyway, and I don't have a clue on how to balance them out. Every time that I try you just laugh and say they are not balanced. Arraggh!

reserve

Not really maniac. Reserve is when every citizen get's a minimal army training and considered as military reserve. No real standing army, beyond some very few ones and training crew. Singapore is a good example.
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Harel (edited August 13, 1999).]</font>

[will I]

Theben:

I think your post identifies another aspect of what I've viewed as complexity. In truth, there are hundreds of factors that determine how well societies perform the tasks that their members want them to perform. Our goal in making a game is to distill those down to a level that is easily comprehensible so that we can have the game experience of manipulating the factors to see whether we can build a successful society. My gripe with most of the systems I've seen is that they (1) do not distill the factors enough, resulting in too many CE factors, (2) disaggregate factors that are really the same, or (3) combine factors that are really different.

I would strive to limit the CE factors to nine or ten because I think that too many more than that would spawn confusion. Note, however, that my proposals to remove factors from SE means they would leave the game entirely. In many cases, I feel they might be handled better in a different context.

That said, the heart of the civ games is the conversion of three inputs (trade, minerals, and food) into six outputs (population, production, pollution, research, luxuries, and money). Two other factors (efficiency and happiness) limit the player's ability to convert the inputs into outputs. Combat is also important in the Civ games, and is typically influenced by the experience level of the combatant units.

Several people have suggested additions to this matrix -- for example, that SE choices should affect emigration levels and through that growth, or that SE choices should affect a civ's success in interaction with other civs. I think that if we're trying to suggest a new model for Civ3, we should to evaluate each addition in terms of whether the complexity it adds is worthwhile.

I'm running out of time now, so I'll only address one or two points. I don't think a diplomacy factor adds much to the game. Historically, a government's diplomatic success is more closely tied with the commonality of interests (both in terms of culture and real-world objectives) and past behavior. I think that the reputation system in Civ2 and the SMAC system of certain SE choices not interacting are adequate to determine diplomatic success.

I don't think that adding immigration as a factor determining population growth would be a valuable addition, either. Most importantly, society choices by themselves (other than genocide) have rarely generated emigration. Rather, wealth and happiness levels -- which are already in the game -- are primary engines of emigration. While allowing for movement among civs would make the game more interesting, I think that a formula generating inter-civ population changes based on relative happiness and wealth levels would achieve this without the added complexity of an emigration factor.

Therefore, I support Theben's proposal that we first identify the CE factors, then the SE options before going into the nitty-gritty of how the SE options affect the CE factors, and through them, conversion of inputs into output and the resolution of combat.

[Maniac]

M@ni@c's SE factors.

To make sure there is no problem with understanding my factors while making a new model and also to make a summary for Bell, I'll repost and update my factors here. Comments are welcome. The effects of the factors may change when the maxima and minima of the new model are definitely determined.

1) Police


Having a purge means all people become content for ten turns, similar to SMAC nerve staple.
A purge is an atrocity, especially in modern times.

In all Civ versions I wondered why airplanes caused unhappiness. The reason a manual gave me was that it was because the pilots had to do practice flights and were always in the air. That caused unhappiness. Is that a reason??????
I think airplanes cause less unhappiness.
As long as a democracy(Western countries) is bombarding another nation(Serbia, Iraq)no problem. It's only when they want to send ground troops and the boys of the country itself can get killed, there comes trouble. That's why I think Air units should cause less unhappiness.

With allies I mean simple allies.
With pact nations I mean civs that are in your multistate-coallition(eg NATO, probably possible in Civ3). There should be at least 4 civs to have a coallition.

There should be a council proposal à la SMAC possible to or not to allow nuke use.

About territory. I think even if there aren't sea bases, there should be sea borders. 1 square away in ancient times after the discovery of the Sail. Two in renaissance after the discovery of the Compass. Three in modern times.

Theben, since you haven't got a concrete happiness indicator, I'll still use unhappy citizens=drones.

+3 : 3 units can act as police. Police effect doubled.

+2 : 3 units can act as police, each keeping one proletarian content.

+1 : 2 units can act as police

0 : 1 unit can act as police

-1 : 1 police; can't have a purge.

-2 : no police and no purging (also no purging for all lower police rates)

-3 : Units in your territory or in an allied city never cause unhappiness.
All units in allied teritory never cause unhappiness.
Every unit beyond the first out of your or your allies' territory causes one drone.

-4 : Units in your territory or in an allied city never cause unhappiness.
All units in allied teritory never cause unhappiness.
Every land or sea unit out of your or your allies' territory causes one drone.
Every air unit beyond the first out of your or your allies' territory cause one drone.

-5 : Units in your territory or in an allied city never cause unhappiness.
Every land or sea unit in your allies' territory, but not in one of their cities, cause one drone.
All air units beyond the first in your allies' territory cause one drone.
Every land or sea unit out of your or your allies' teritory cause two drones.
All air units beyond the first out of your or your allies' territory cause one drone.

-6 : Units in your territory or in an allied city never cause unhappiness.
Every unit in allied territory, but not in one of their cities, cause one drone.
Land and sea units out of your or your allies' territory cause two drones.
Air units out of your or your allies' territory cause one drone.

-7 : Units in your territory or in an allied city never cause unhappiness.
Units not in your territory cause two drones.
(this also counts for all lower police rates)

-8 : You (or your senate,depends on Internal Control rate; later more about this) must ask permission to your pact nations to send ground or nuclear (if allowed by some agreement) units to an enemy.
1/2 must agree.

-9 : You (or your senate,depends on Internal Control rate; later more about this) must ask permission to your pact nations to send ground or nuclear (if allowed by some agreement) units to an enemy.
3/4 must agree.

-10 : You (or your senate,depends on Internal Control rate; later more about this) must ask permission to your pact nations to send ground or nuclear (if allowed by some agreement) units to an enemy.
All but one member must agree.

-11 : You (or your senate,depends on Internal Control rate; later more about this) must ask permission to your pact nations to send ground or nuclear (if allowed by some agreement) units to an enemy.
Everyone must agree!!!!

2) Support


I think units should have a different support. Transports or Explorers won't need as much support as Battleships or Knights. This is easy to do with the x10 system.

For every +Support, one less resource is needed to support the unit.
For example, if a Knights requires normally 10 resources to support, with +4 Support it would only require 6 resources.

For every -Support, one more resource is needed to support the unit.
For example, if a Knights requires normally 10 resources to support, with -4 Support it would only require 14 resources.

For -1 Support and every higher Support rate, when you found a new city you get 10 labor/resources for free.

3) Production

For every +Production, you produce 10% more food and also 10% more labor when producing non-military units, city improvements or wonders of the world

For every -Production, you produce 10% less food and also 10% less labor when producing non-military, city improvements or wonders of the world

Notes :
1)Using everythingx10 model
2)So a city normally producing 60 Food and 20 Resources should produce 72 Food and 24 Minerals with +2 Production.
3)Other ways to increase Food or Resource production can be Terrain Improvements (Railroad and Farm) and Technologies :
eg in the beginning of the game an irrigation yields +9 Food.
-Pottery : +1 Food for Irrigation TI.
-Horse Plowing : +1 " " " "
-Crop Rotation : +1 " " " "

4) Corruption


The higher your corruption rate, the less trade you loose by cities far away from your capital.(so no waste in Civ3)

The formula used could be as in Civ2 :

Corruption = ((Trade x Distance) x3) / (20 x (4 + Corruption))

where :

Corruption = your SE Corruption rate

Distance = the city's distance from your capital (diagonal squares count as 1.5 squares when figuring the Distance)
The maximum value of Distance = 36.

Problem with this formula could be that it is independent from the map size.
On a huge map there is still as much corruption as on a tiny map. On a huge map there should be less corruption. I think giving a maximum distance is too less to solve the problem.

Solution?

The # of map squares on a normal map was 50 x 80 = 4000 squares.

So perhaps the formula could be :

Corruption = ((Trade x (Distance / 4000 x # of map squares)) x3) / (20 x (4 + Corruption)) / 4000 x # of map squares

Bell, don't forget to include this formulae in the summary WITH their problems.

5) Urbanization


1)This determines how much your people tend to go from the countryside to the cities = their willingness to live in a huge city(in other words your population limit) and it determines how much rows must be filled to let the city grow(similar to SMAC).

2) I think cities should continue to grow even if there is no aquaduct or similar building. My Urbanization is based on it. The drawback would be that all people not having sufficient clean water(=Aquaduct, Sewer System) or living space(=Apartment Blocks, Arcology) become Revolutionaries = very unhappy citizens. Too much Revolutionaries can cause a city to revolt and form a new civ.

3) city size 7 or 8 : Aquaduct needed
12/14 Sewer System( not the modern one that came much too early in Civ2, but something like the Roman Cloaca = sewerage.
20 : Apartment Block
30 : Arcology
40 : Super Arcology? or perhaps there should be a building for 40, to similate population pressure.

4) I think in the early parts of the game, so I mean until the Modern Age, population boom should be impossible. This is as much cheating as ICS. So the pop boom problem should also be solved.


5) A granary in Civ3 should be like in Civ2, and not like a Children's Creche, causing +2 Urbanization, in SMAC. Otherwise you could get pop boom early in the game.

+6 : +6 Population limit; Cities have a population boom every turn if sufficient Food is available in your city/region.
+5 : +5 Population limit; only 5 rows must be filled to let a city increase in size.
...
0 : normal
...
-5 : -5 pop limit; 15 rows must be filled.
-6 : -6 pop limit; no population growth.

6) Evangelism


1) Evangelism determines how easy it for a Clerics to convert population (and units?) to your faith.

2) If a civ has a lower Evangelism rate, his cities become automatically converted to your religion, if he has a trade route with one of your cities (or simply by geographical location?). If the capital is converted you get a better relationship. If that civ attacks you, the citizens of the converted city become unhappier = lower happiness rate...

3) Your Evangelism rate determines how long it takes for conquered cities to assimilate to your culture and cause less happiness.
In SMAC it was 50 turns. For every +Evangelism you have more than the city of the previous owner, the city needs 10 less turns to assimilate.
If you have a lower Evangelism rate, the city doesn't adapt. Means more unhappiness and increases the likelyness of revolting and forming a new civ.
If the citizens of the conquered city follow your state religion, they are immediately assimilated.

4) Evangelism affects your attack strenght(=evangelism) in religious debate/combat. Per +Evangelism you get +12.5% in combat. Per -Evangelism -12.5%.
The happiness of the population also affects the strenght.
Aristocratian : +25%
Worker : normal
Proletarian : -25%
Revolutianary : -50%
Animist : -100%
Animists are citizens without an advanced religion.

5)Your religious defense(=conviction) is determined by Nationalism.

6) Can't say numbers. Religious debate still busy on the Religion thread.

7) Numbers are relative. Means the effects are also determined by the other civ's Evangelism rate.

+? : Conversion easier; faster than normal assimilation

-? : Your population gets converted; no assimilation if lower culture

7) Reconnaissance


The Iron Curtain Wonder makes emigration impossible and renders your civilization completely immune to any diplomat/spy action.

+6 : No emigration possible
+5 Spy/Diplomat Morale
no bribing possible
Spy/Diplomat have 100% chance of success
-75% cost of your Spy/Diplomat actions

+5: Very very low emigration
+5 Spy/Diplomat Morale
no bribing
-75% cost of your Spy/Diplomat actions
very very high success rate

+4 : Very low emigration
+4 Spy/Diplomat Morale
no bribing
-50% cost of your Spy/Diplomat actions
very high success rate

+3 : Low emigration
+3 Spy/Diplomat Morale
+75% cost of enemy Spy/Diplomat actions
-50% cost of your Spy/Diplomat actions
high succes rate

+2 : Lower emigration
+2 Spy/Diplomat morale
+50% cost of enemy Spy/Diplomat actions
-25% cost of your Spy/Diplomat actions
higher success rate

+1 : Slightly lower emigration
+1 Spy/Diplomat Morale
+25% cost of enemy Spy/Diplomat actions
-25% cost of your Spy/Diplomat actions
slightly higher succes rate

0 : normal

-1 : -1 Spy/Diplomat Morale
-25% cost of enemy Spy/Diplomat actions
+25% cost of your Spy/Diplomat actions
slightly lower succes rate

-2 : -2 Spy/Diplomat Morale
-50% cost of enemy Spy/Diplomat actions
+25% cost of your Spy/Diplomat actions
lower succes rate

-3 : -3 Spy/Diplomat Morale
-50% cost of enemy Spy/Diplomat actions
+50% cost of your Spy/Diplomat actions
low success rate

9) Experience

Necessary for this social factor to work, is off course that the Morale distinction of SMAC is used.
I don't like the word Commando to express the experience level of a unit, so these are my proposed names.
Very Green
Green
Disciplined
Hardened
Trained
Veteran
Elite
Perhaps hardened and trained should be switched.

This SE factor does not determine the Morale of Spies and Diplomats.

In the modern age there should be atrocities like SMAC for certain war crimes or crimes against your population(Purge), but high Experience levels cause less reactions from the world.

+5 : world opinion does not punish you for atrocities because they don't expect anything else from you; +5 Experience
+4 : +4 Experience; no world opinion punishment
+3 : +3 Experience; less world opinion punishment
+2 : +2 Experience
+1 : +1 Experience
0 : normal Experience
-1 : -1 Experience
-2 : -1 Experience; positive combat modifiers halved
-3 : -2 Experience; + modifiers halved
-4 : -3 Experience; + modifiers halved

9) Research


Without SE changes you can set your amount of trade used for science to 70%.

I said on the other SE thread that I want simultaneous research in each category. Therefore you should be able to allocate a certain amount of your research point to one category. Categories should be Economic, Military, Academic, Social, Applied. Normally this should be 50%.

+8 : +80% Research; you may set your trade allocated to science at 100%; you may allocate 100% of your accumulated science to one category.
...
+5 : +50% Research; trade 100%; category 100%
+4 : +40% Research; trade 100%; category 90%
+3 : +30 Res; trade 100; cat 80
+2 : +20 Res; trade 90; cat 70
+1 : +10 Res; trade 80; cat 60
0 : normal science accumulation; trade 70%; category 50%
-1 : -10% Research; trade 60%; category 40%
-2 : -20 Res; trade 50; cat 30
-3 : -30 Res; trade 40; cat 20
-4 : -40 Res; trade 30; cat 20

10) Economy


In SMAC +1 Economy was +1 Energy/base. That may be a nice bonus in the beginning of the game. But later in the game it means nothing. The x10 system can correct this.

I give +30 trade/square to +5 Economy. Some might say that makes it's too hard for not-Free Market civs. I disagree.
1)The Superhighways improvement in Civ2 did the same thing. Yielding a bonus to Republics and Democracies, but not to all other govs. x10 solves that problem and also gives a +50% trade/square to not-free market civs.
2)I included more SE choices giving an Economy bonus, so even not-free market civs can get the +10 trade/square.

Civilization's capitals should get +10 trade.

+7 : +24 trade/square
+6 : +22 trade/square
+5 : +20 trade/square
+4 : +14 trade/square
+3 : +12 trade/square
+2 : +10 trade/square
+1 : +2 trade/square
0 : normal trade production
-1 : -1 trade/square; -10 trade in capital
-2 : -2 trade/square; -10 trade in capital
-3 : -3 trade/square; -10 trade in capital
-4 : -4 trade/square; -10 trade in capital

11) Environment


There should be three types of pollution : industrial, nuclear and population pollution


Environment can increase or decrease industrial and population population.
Unfortunately the Civ2 formulae don't take a pollution modifier in account, so they can't be used in Civ3.

Environment should also increase or decrease the likelyness of plagues, diseases, natural disasters, etc…

+? : less pollution; less natural disruption
...
0 : normal pollution rate
...
-? : more pollution; more natural disruption

12) Happpiness


Happiness affects the addition of extra unhappy citizens because a civ has exceeded a certain number of cities.
The Happiness formula works as follows a bit as in SMAC:

City Limit = (8 - Difficulty) x (6 + Happiness rate) x MapRoot / 2

Where :

Difficulty = Player's Difficulty level (0-5)
Happiness = SE Happiness rate
MapRoot = Square Root of # map squares / Square Root of 3200

For each city a civ builds or conquers in excess of this number, one additional unhappy citizen will appear at some random city somewhere in the civ.

Note I used (6 + Happiness rate). This '6' is open for changement cause that number has to be the positive of the most negative SE Happiness rate possible in the model to prevent getting a negative number in the City Limit.

As an added bonus and penalty I would give +4 Happiness one extra happy citizen for each 4 citizens and -4 Happiness one extra unhappy citizen for each 4 citizens.

Normally you should be able to set the amount of trade you allocate for luxuries on a maximum of 50%. Happiness rate should affect this. So if you have eg a Happiness rate of -4, it should be impossible for you to mend the unhappy citizens by high luxury rates.

…
+5 : one extra happy citizen for each 4 citizens; luxury rate can be set at 100%
+4 : one extra happy citizen for each 4 citizens; 90%
+3 : 80%
+2 : 70%
+1 : 60%
0 :50%
-1 : 40%
-2 : 30%
-3 : 20%
-4 : one extra unhappy citizen for each 4 citizens; 10%
-5 : one extra unhappy citizen for each 4 citizens; you can't use any luxuries
…


13) Taxes

Normal amount of trade you can allocate to Taxes is 70%.

If you have eg a tax income of 20 gold and a Tax rate of +2, you get 22 Gold.

...
+3 : +30 tax; tax allocation 100%
+2 : +20 tax; tax 90
+1 : +10 tax; tax 80
0 : normal Tax income; tax 70
-1 : -10 tax; tax 60
-2 : -20 tax; tax 50
-3 : -30 tax; tax 40
-4 : -20 tax; tax 30
…

14) Internal Control


Be aware of this factor! Not all the negatives are bad!

The commerce bonus should increase the value and the profit of trade routes.

…
+4 : +50% Conviction (= Religious defense)
+3 : +37% Conviction
+2 : +25% Conviction
+1 : +12% Conviction
0 : normal
-1 : -12% Conviction; +1 commerce bonus; 25% chance that the Senate signs a truce or a treaty and 25% chance that the Senate forbids you to sneak attack an enemy.
-2 : -25% Conviction; +2 commerce bonus; 50% Senate restrictions
-3 : -37% Conviction; +3 commerce bonus; 75% Senate restrictions
-4 : -50% Conviction; +4 commerce bonus; 100% Senate restrictions
…

15) Military Industry


This factor affects military unit production the same way Production affects non-military unit, city improvement and wonder production.

Harel, do you count a Spy under military or non-military units? In Civ2 terms it was non-military, but in reality it is military.

[Diodorus Sicilus]

Quick answers to specifics - you know how long it takes just to read this Thread these days?
M@ni@c: reference to Minoans, I don't believe there is any evidence of any large ground force, certainly none of a large tradition of ground military action. The distinction between merchant-pirate and regular navy was a little more blurry in those days, but when I was studying ancients years ago the Minoans were generally considered to have had the first professional navy and to have used it for sea control: basically, sinking anybody who tried to muscle in on their trade routes.
Their trade extended at least as far as Sicily (obsidian traded) and all over the middle east from the Bosporus (Troy and its ancestors) down to Egypt. They carried most of Egypt's overseas trade, according to the Egyptian records of the period 1300 BC and earlier.
Having been on Crete several times, the best surviving evidence I've seen for a strong navy and no army tradition is that none of the 'Minoan' palaces show any signs of being fortified: no worries about fighting anybody because no attacker could get to Crete!
Harel:
Reserve is simply a Draft Army in which the active component is very small. Best modern examples are actually Sweden and Switzerland: 40-50,000 active and over 500,000 reservists in each case. Rather than a separate type, this is a great case for the Slider option: select Draft/Conscript Army and set the % relationship between Active and Reserve based on how much you want to spend - cause Active costs big bucks for its maintenance. Also, costs of Training are much more likely to be wasted in reserves - they just don't have the time to get a lot out of the training funds, so a large Reserve force will be harder to maintain at high Morale/Efficiency levels than a large active army, but the large active army is usually unsupportable without serious damage (sucking out resources and labor) to the economy.
Mercenaries.
Mercenaries are simply Professional or Military Caste troopees that have nothing to do at home, and go looking for work elsewhere. After all, someone once described a patriotic solder as '-one who fights for his own country for pay, as opposed to fighting for a foreigner..." Mercenaries can be really important in the early modern period, but after Mass Armies (Conscription) becomes the norm, they are much less so: although the French Foreign Legion has done significant work in modern Africa. Possibly use mercenaries in the modern period to avoid Democratic penalties for military action. Lemme think about that - right now I gotta plow through pages of posts before I can post my own stuff - it's going to be a long weekend...

[Harel]

I don't accept some of your new modifactors Maniac. You took a dive for the wrost.
Evanglism? What is I want Athiesm? A high evanglist rating ( strong religon ) makes the citizen become loyal to you faster?! huh?

Unhappy citizens are more likekly to convert faster in a low evanglism rating, like Athiest or Religos freedom.
Also, you tended to give some modifactors too many bonuses/minuses. It's better to have more modifactors then ones you are not clear what you are getting from them.
Here is what I suggest:

1. Police: as stated. ( Pol )

2. Support: as stated. ( Sup )

3. Production: as stated. ( Pro )

4. Corruption: as stated. ( Corr )

5. Urbinzation ( growh sounds better ): as stated. ( Urb )

6. Conviction: only applied to the religon section. Strong religons gain a bonus. Higher ratings make you more immune to bribing and clerk convertions. ( Con )

7. Culture: bonus to democracy and other free-mind options. Culture gives you four things:
A. Decide how fast new cities convert to you.
B. Culture difference is measured in trade bonus. For example, if you got +2 Cult, and you trade with a -2 Cult, you gain +4 gold for every caravans. However, you don't get a minus.
C. Replace Internal control: high culture rating reduce the level of senate intervention.
D. High culture rating lower the likehood of revoultions. ( Cult )

8. Espionage: For spy morale, and strike costs. Also decide your defence against spying. Like probe on SMAC. ( Esp )

9. Expreince: as stated ( Exp )

10. Research: as stated ( Res )

11. Economy: as stated ( Eco )

12. Enviroment: I would also give a bonus to food-based tiles ( fields and farms ). ( Env )

13. Happiness: as stated ( Hap )

14. Taxes: as stated ( Tax )

15. Commerce: since sometimes you can have a strong trade but poor economy ( colonization ), I suggest a new modifactor that only gives bonus to trade routes. ( Com )

16. Military industry: as stated ( Mil ).

17. Diplomacy: still need this one ( Dipl ).

[Maniac]

Harel, don't worry, don't worry, I'll help you, I promise. I'm just kinda busy right now with rebalancing some factors. Which is done right now. Unless you detect some problems...

Another ( the thirth?) model tip :
3)Restrict your bonuses and penalties to + or - 2. You have a lot of + and - 3's.
The only exceptions with me, I think, are the very extremes Transnational and Communism.
An exception to this rule is Police negatives. They may be given to +2 Eco in large numbers.

What do you think of factor 14 and 15? Ok?

"BTW, can I kill you?"

Now I certainly don't want to be a cadet under you .

Local Markets.

A better name could be Fairs. These aren't local markets, but they are the first non-manorial market type after Norman invasions reduced economy to Manorial. Or perhaps something that's called in Dutch and/or German 'hanze' or 'ganze'.
Is that right Diodorus?

Manorial/Local
->Fair

BTW, these fairs weren't government controlled as far as I know, but by g/hanzes.
So state-organized protectionism/mercantilism is a totally new form of economy.

Mercantilism

Simply explained, because they thought in that time that international trade was static, the goal of Mercantilism was to deprive trade of other nations and so have a better part in the trade themself.

Mercantilism was from the 16th to the 18th century.
It was not only between France and England. Actually, the victim of the French and English mercantilism were the Netherlands.

It was to increase the welfare and the state's power.

Protection of own industry, agriculture and fishery was important to get a good export-position and so get a part of the American gold that came to Europe by Spain.

Mercantilists tried to decrease import and increase export.

Mercantilism was a beginning COLONIAL economy. It wanted to improve the colonies and increase colonial trade.

Ok, it wasn't the real colonial economy system, but the precursor.

The economical system was used more than just 150 years and more than by just 2 countries.
BTW, considering that Europe was then the centre of the world and the Europeans controlled a large part of the world, the system was very important in history and must be included in the model.

Under the mercantilist era the Indian Companies were founded, which mean the beginning of the colonial economy.

How else would you describe the economies between 1500 and 1800? Protectionism? Fine, then just recall it to Mercantilism and I'm satisfied.

It's much more than "cheating" and exporting some mass goods.

My new beginning with mistakes and again too much choices and too little ->'s factorless for the moment model based on Harel and Diodorus

Got the title?

Government

has too much ->'s

Tribal Assembly
->Early Republic
-->New Republic(Dutch Republic and Italian City States)
--->Democracy
---->True Democracy

Despotism/Dictatorship
->Monarchy/Dynasty (to not let appear the name Monarchy too much)
-->Empireship/Absolute Monarchy
--->Totalitarianism

Don't know where to place Parliamentary Monarchy. Somewhere between Monarchy and Republic.
Also don't know where to place States General.

These are important monarchy forms where the nobles and other economical classes had larger influence.

Perhaps after Monarchy there should be two directions : the absolute one and the parliamentary one.

Monarchy
->Empireship/Absolute
-->Totalitarianism

Monarchy
->States General
-->Parliamentary

Economy

has too little ->'s

Barter
->Currency

Capitalist
->Banking
-->Free Market
--->Transnational

Manorialism
->Fairs/Hanze

Mercantilism
->Colonial

Planned?
->Communism
-->Utopia

Structure

Harel, I told myself Structure sucked, so I believe you completely when you say it.
Based on Harel's and Diodorus' notes :

City State
->Feudal
Confederate
->Commonwealth
Imperial
->Federal

Or perhaps out of City State there should be two options as out Monarchy there were also two options.

City State
->Feudal

City State
->Confederate
-->Commonwealth

"But since Maniac doesn't like slider bars, this is what I suggest:"

Do you want to use slider bars, Harel?

Values

Hmm... That Value stuff is beginning to make sense now it's explained something better.

Survival
->Power?
Growth/Imperialism
Socialism/Welfare (not Wealthfare)
Wealth
Knowledge

No Environment?

I think these choices are put from most basic to luxurious following Diodorus' ideas.
Survival first and Knowledge on the other edge of the list.

Research

Wise Men
Natural
Humanitarian
Practical
Explorer

Religion

Your list looks good, but I doubt the guys of the Religion thread would agree with it.
Which ***** decided to split Religion and SE?

Army

I'm getting in favor of an Army category.
Would use some Diodorian ideas in it.

Levee in Mass/The People Army
->Drafts
-->Civic Duty (please explain what you mean with this. Switzerland? Everyone has a duty when there comes war?)

Militia
->Volunteer/Conscription?
-->Reserve?

You said that they get a minimal training. Isn't that covered under Basic? I don't really know of this Reserve evolution is good.
So :

Reserve?/Basic? : no pos or neg

Military Caste
Mercenary
Both these could end in...
->Professional

When we agree on a list of SE choices, we can begin discussing the effects.

So don't worry Harel, I will give comment.

[Harel]

I have compiled a new, shorter list of modifactors. They are, ofcourse, very preliminary. Tell me what you think:

1. Loyality: Increased mainly by strong religons. ( Loy )
A good loyality:
Increase coversion defence.
Increase the cost of bribing.
Increase your defence against spying.
Decresse emigarion level.

2. Order: increased by strong rulers and strict structure. ( Ord )
A high order ratio does:
Gets extra taxs.
Have better police.
Reduce corruption.

3. Economy: as pre-written.

4. Militarial ( Mil ).
Unite military industry and support. High mil reudce the cost of maintance and increase the cosntruction rate of new units.

5. Productivity ( Pro ) as pre-written.

6. Exprience ( Exp ): act like morale and spies quality ( morale, cost of actions, and chance of success ).

7. Relations ( Relt ): increase profit from trade routes and diplomatic relations.

8. Originality ( Org ): boost reaserch rate.

9. Harmony ( Hrm ): define whatever your people are a harmonic group. Increased by regional structre, democracy and free religons. A good Hrm gives you:
Reduce chance of revoltions.
Increased rate of conversion of captured cities.
A less annoying senate.

10. Happiness ( Hap ): unite happiness bonuses with Urbanization ( Growth ).

So, if connection to my own model:

Version 3 - optional values

Goverement

Anarchy: -3 Hap, -3 Ord

Despotism: +2 Mil, -2 Hap
->Military autocraty: no pos, no neg.
-->Police state: +1 Ord

Dictatorship: +2 Ord, -2 Loy
->Totalarism: +2 Ord, +2 Mil, -2 Loy, -1 Org

Monarchy: +2 Pro, -2 Hrm
->Empireship: +2 Pro, +2 Mil, -2 Hrm, -1 Eco

Lordship: +2 Loy, -2 Org
->Theocracy: +2 Loy, +2 Ord, -2 Org, -1 Exp

Republic: +2 Hrm, -2 Mil
->Democracy: +2 Hrm, +2 Hap, -2 Mil, -1 Exp
-->True Democracy: +3 Hrm, +2 Hap, -2 Mil, -2 Exp

Market

Barter: -1 Eco
->Currency: No pos, no neg.
-->Stock exchange: +1 Eco

Local markets: +2 Ord, -2 Loy
->Protectionism: +2 Ord, +2 Hrm, -2 Loy, -1 Rel
-->Colonization: +3 Ord, +2 Hrm, -2 Loy, -2 Rel

Social: +2 Hap, -2 Eco
->Communism: +2 Hap, +2 Loy, -2 Eco, -1 Ord
-->Utopia: +3 Hap, +2 Loy, -2 Eco, -2 Ord

Banking: +2 Eco, -2 Ord
->Free Market: +2 Eco, +2 Pro, -2 Ord, -2 Mil
-->Transnational: +3 Eco, +2 Pro, -2 Ord, -2 Mil, -2 Hrm

structure

City State/Feudal: +2 Hrm, -2 Loy
Commonwealth/Confedarte: +1 Hrm, -1 Loy
Empire: +1 Loy, -1 Hrm
Federal: +2 Loy, -2 Hrm

Religon

Animism: -2 Org
->Polytheism: no pos, no neg
Loose monotheism: +2 Hap, -2 Hrm
Fundementalism: +2 Mil, -2 Org
Religous freedom: +2 Hrm, -2 Ord
Religous intolerance: +2 Loy, -2 Hap
Atheism: +2 Org, -2 Hrm

Army

Basic: no pos, no neg.

Militia: +2 Hrm, -1 Mil, -1 Exp
->Volunteer: +2 Hrm, -1 Exp

The people army: +2 Mil, -1 Hap, -1 Loy
->Drafts: +2 Mil, -1 Loy
-->Civil duty: +3 Mil, -1 Loy

Mercenery: +2 Exp, -2 Mil
->Trained: +3 Exp, -2 Mil

Values

Survival: +1 Mil, -1 Hap
Power: +2 Mil, +2 Exp, -2 Pro
Knowledge: +2 Org, -2 Rel
Wealth: +1 Eco, +1 Pro, -2 Hrm
Wealthfare: +2 Hap, +2 Hrm, -2 Ord

Research

Wise Men: no pos or neg
Humanitarian: +2 Hrm, -1 Exp, Social Science is +40%
* Practical**: +2 Mil, -2 Org, Military Science is +40%
* Explorer: +2 Org, -1 Hrm, Academic Science is +40%

** Prototypes in the workshop are for free.

[Maniac]

Harel :

"A high evanglist rating ( strong religon ) makes the citizen become loyal to you faster?! huh?"

Sorry, you're right. But do you agree that there shouldn't be an assimilation period when the citizens of the conquered city already have your relgion?

"Also, you tended to give some modifactors too many bonuses/minuses."

Yes, I know I gave some too many negatives and positives.
The maxima and minima were based on my first model and also on the idea that civs have some predetermined factors as in SMAC. This has been changed by now.

Determining for definite what the effects of the various rates are can only happen after the model is definite and little can change.
So I left some playing room.
Later I can change it easily.
eg Reconnaissance/Espionage can easily be reduced to 4 + rates.
The -8 to -11 police factors can just be scrapped.
Also +6 and +7 Eco.
...

"It's better to have more modifactors then ones you are not clear what you are getting from them."

Yes I agree completely. But there are some guys with a bad memory who can only remember 9 to 10 factors.

I suggest we ignore such imposters and we make a model together with Diodorus.

5) Urbanization

I'm willing to rename it to Growth.
But the name Growth doesn't sound as it has something to do with pop limits.
Is that a problem?

6) Does you Conviction factor determine Religious attack AND defense?

7) Culture
Sounds good. Only have a problem with, indeed, Senate.
According to your explanation, Democracy would have less Senate restrictions. That doesn't sound right.
You know, since we already have 17 factors, is adding one more such a problem?
Then all problems would be solved.

12) Environment

You know why I disagree with giving Env food bonuses. And I'm beginning to doubt if Production should affect food production.
In reality it should affect only Irrigation/Farm production! Means a bit less bonus/powerful factor. (Didn't you think the factor was way overpowered?)
Agreed?

Hey just got an idea.

Environmentalism should affect the production of Jungles/Forests and whatever tree terrain types there will be in Civ3.
It is true that carefully organized and environmentally forest harvesting means more production.
Perfect example is Finland. They have a marvellous forest planting/chopping system.

15) Commerce : Agreed.

17) Diplomacy : Agreed

What do you think of the changes to Env and Pro?

Should there be an independent Senate factor?

Please answer my Conviction question.

M@ni@c
Factor reformer

[Harel]

Maniac

First off, I don't really like those suggested modifactors I put on the last post. I simply used them to show how we can shorten the list.

Secondly, i about your post about goverments, markets and structures. I am going to do something that I don't usally do. I am going to ignore it completly. I would just say that you seem to like have "cool names" more then playabiltiy or historical correctness. Just rethink about that post.

Convition has no attack bonus, and shouldnt get on anyway. Thats for the morale bonus.

Points about shortening the list:

1. Consider uniting police with corruption into order.

2. My suggested Loyality should stay, including religous defence, brinibg resistence, espionage defence and redue emigartion.

3. I suggest to unite spy morale with unit morale into exprience. BTW, a well trained army always has good intel.

4. uniting support with military infrastructre would allow us to both be historicaly accurate ( to diodorus ), and still include the military industry bonus. BTW, a good Militarial would give bonus to military infatrstructre AND support ( where did you get the idea is was +Sup, -Mil? )

5. Commece and diplomacy should be united into relations. So, colonization could get a eco bonus, but because of here large relation minus, it would get low income from trade.

6. Change Culture to Harmony, which is increased with good religons and regional structures.
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Harel (edited August 13, 1999).]</font>

[Maniac]

Just a quick response on your new factors.

Loyalty : Sounds good, but I wouldn't let it affect the cost of bribing.

Order : Higher police is not equal to higher taxes.
Less corruption is in game terms certainly not equal to high police.
Then Free markets should have massive corruption. No no.

Militarial : I don't know.
+ Militarial = + Sup, - Mil.
I am against factors with positives having penalties and negatives having bonuses.

Experience : Spy morale should be different.
A good army does not mean good espionage/reconnaissance.

Relations : In general you are right that better trade goes with better diplomacy.
But how then simulate Colonization with it's good trade routes?

9) Why does that mean a less annoying senate?

10) inaccuracy

In general, those combinations would let to massive inaccuracies.

M@ni@c
again losing hope for good factors

[Maniac]

"First off, I don't really like those suggested modifactors I put on the last post."

Me neither.

"Secondly, i about your post about goverments, markets and structures. I am going to do something that I don't usally do. I am going to ignore it completly. I would just say that you seem to like have "cool names" more then playabiltiy or historical correctness. Just rethink about that post."

If you want cool names AND historical correctness (that 'model' is very historical corretc).
If you want playability, I direct you again to my old Pre-Diodorian model.

"1. Consider uniting police with corruption into order."

In theory perhaps a strong police could lead to less corruption, but in reality an oppressive police regime never does.

"3. I suggest to unite spy morale with unit morale into exprience. BTW, a well trained army always has good intel."

Agreed.

"2. My suggested Loyality should stay, including religous defence, brinibg resistence, espionage defence and redue emigartion."

Agreed.

"4. uniting support with military infrastructre would allow us to both be historicaly accurate ( to diodorus ), and still include the military industry bonus. BTW, a good Militarial would give bonus to military infatrstructre AND support ( where did you get the idea is was +Sup, -Mil? )"

"4. Militarial ( Mil ).
Unite military industry and support. High mil reudce the cost of maintance and increase the cosntruction rate of new units."

reduced cost of maintainance = + Sup
increased construction cost = - Mil
Oh, or do you mean speed with rate?

"5. Commece and diplomacy should be united into relations. So, colonization could get a eco bonus, but because of here large relation minus, it would get low income from trade."

Then you would again get the problem that Colonization/Wealth gets +2 Eco. Means problems with Jon Miller. And you must admit he's right about it.

"6. Change Culture to Harmony, which is increased with good religons and regional structures."

Perhaps.

[Cartagia the Great]

I'm not sure if I psoted this before, but in case I did not, I shall not depost my ideas for government:

A while ago there was psoted the idea that in order to change governments, one would have to change the policies of the current government. Instead of going from a Monarcy to a Democracy, one would have to call a parliment, and othe things. A revolution could come ,but this would be not under your controll, and would cause havoc in your nation. I would like to build on these ideas.

Governments change over time, this has always been the case. The Roman Empire of Augustus was much differant than the Roman Empire of Justinian II. I believe that this change in government should be reflected in the game.

For instance, let us say that you arethe leader of the Celtic Monarcy, a fairly large multi-ethnic Empire. Like all multi-ethnic Empires(or empires of size), it has happiness problems. In order to quell this unrest High King Vercingtorix calls into existence a Parliment, and sets it's influence at low(if not a slide bar, there would be atleast 6 choices ranging from low influence to-very high Influence(aka the modern Britihs state).

this makes people happy, for a while, and the Celtic Kingdom is able to go on with it's buisness. Now, later on, the people grow unhappy once again and ,in order to fix this, the King raises the influences of the parliment. Making the people happy.

With the growing influence of the Parliment, the king would lose certian powers, making it slightly more difficult to follow his own agenda. However certian micro-managment functions would also be taken over by the parliment.

years later, due to unhappiness, the King has given away much of his power. Now, lets say that this is bothering him, as it does not allow him to build the military he wishes, or make war as he wishes. He tries to decrease the power of the Parliment. This, of course, causes wide spread unrest inside his nation, but he is able to do as he pleases. Unhappiness could be taken care of the old fashion way.

The parliment, at vering levles of power, would take over some production in cities, try to stop your actions if your military is big, complain about taxes and make a general pest out of themselfs. However, the fact that they can take care of some micro-managment and do keep people happy might make a player put up with them. If a palyer does not, he cna try to supress, and see how that turns out.

The Parliment would be an option in Monarcy. Once one passes out of Monarcy into Democracy, Communism(or other governments), the Parliment would be a Senate. And it would show how powerful of a senate you wished in responce to your President. Under a Fachism, no senate would be availble, but would have it's own set of prolbems


Now, i also mentioned the idea of slowly changing government through policies. Policies would also affect happiness, income and other social choices in the game. By changing them it would allow you to change a governmnet. (for instance, after changing the policies to turn from a Monarchy into a Democracy it would give you a message that states "policies changed, would you wish to formally change your government type")

Strangly, if your people are not ready for such change, the new government system would fall apart. If you changed from a monarcy to a Democracy a few turns after gaining the technology, for instance, it might not last long due to people not being ready for the change.

Anyway, thats all I ahve for now. What do you all think?

[Theben]

This is more for the CITY MENU screen, but it needs mention here as well. 2 more buttons for that screen, a martial law button & a CE (civilization effects) button.

The martial law button basically changes the city (only) from a more free political SE (republic, democracy) to a more totalitarian one (police state, etc.). If a totalitarian govt. declares martial law then it gets a large bonus to it's POLICE rating. This is my version Nerve Stapling. It's subject to the same Happiness penalties as regular SE shifts.

A button that shows how the various civilization effects (social effects in SMAC) +technology+ the building's effects add together to effect the city.