RELIGION (ver1.1) hosted by Stefu

[Black Dragon]

Actually, religon is not at this moment "ending", but rather just the opposite. Currently, the numbers of religous are actually INCREASING. However, the number of priests is decreasing, and the Catholic Church will have to find a way to deal with it, but somehow I doubt the way they deal with it will be saying "OK, we are out of priests, you have to be atheists now."

But whatever you do, DO NOT MAKE A TECH THAT MAKES RELIGON OBSOLETE, that would *really* piss people off.
And parcalet, putting "Sex Shops" in the game for atheist temple will just piss off atheists who do not use/want those things. Also, using "Science Teachers" as Atheist missionaries would piss of Science Teachers who are non-atheist.

Also, I do not think you should be able to choose your societies' religon, that should be something determined by the people, and you would have the options of "fundamentally worship, Offical, Tolerate, Persecute"

Another factor in each religon should be it's "Centralization", and have three factors.

Very High: Like the Catholic Church, with one central body controlling the faith.

Moderate: Too much lay interpation discouraged, but has nothing like the Vatican. The Theocratic governemnts of the Middle East would be an example.

Low: Like Lutheranism, preaches priesthood of all believers.

Centralization would affect how much the religon will do, say for example:

Your civ, civ A is mostly religon A, which has high centralization. Civ B with religon B is persecuting religon A. Religon A would then ask Civ A to declare war on Civ B, and if Civ A refuses, some of your military units will "Defect" and appear in the control of religon A near Civ B to attack Civ B.

As far as atheism, have it instead of causing happiness like other religons, would actually create UNHAPPINESS, but increase science.

I think using real religon would just piss some people off, ("This Evil game says my religon is dumb and has low science, so I won't buy it"), so instead use things like Fuhdasism, Zaomerism, Turywenzism, and of course, Atheism.

[NotLikeTea]

Hey, hey, HEY!

Don't knock Turywenzism!

[paraclet]

Mbrazier you say that "no natural science can even adress a religious question " and that "a scientist who speaks abpout religion speaks out of his field of expertise"...Totally wrong ! Neurobiologists and neuropsychologists start to understand clearly where inside the brain is located the religious or superstitious area (it is the ame area...)and how education (programmation ) can program the brain to developp these areas and make them work more...Other scientists are discovering right now where inside the brain is located the conscience...And the dicovery of human cloning proves that there is no soul and will make possible to have eternal life on earth...
Scientists also discovered that long sexual abstinence can be responsible of "religious delirium creating visions and making people ear voices"...The explanation of many "visions of saints and prophets...That's why scientists should be the ultimate missionaries...Those of the era of end of superstitions (or religions which is the same)
By the way it should be interesting to have human cloning as a discovery in Civ 3 making science much more powerfull as old sceintists through different bodies can have an exponential accumulation of knowledge...

[Eggman]

paraclet, while you are free to have any beliefs that you want, please remember that this forum is for discussing the addition of religion to Civ3, not your soapbox for your personal propaganda on religion. If you wish to do that, find a newsgroup or an off-topic forum.

However, I must admit that your claim that long sexual abstinence causes visions and voices to be quite amusing. The voices in my head told me so. ;-)

[Black Dragon]

"Neurobiologists and neuropsychologists start to understand clearly where inside the brain is located the religious or superstitious area (it is the ame area..."

What does this prove? First of all, is this just something some atheist neurobiologist, or accepted by all of them. Even still, if 1 part of a brain deals with the supernatural, it still proves nothing.

About Scientists discovering where the conscience is, again that still doesn't show anything.

Human Cloning Disproving a Soul? Those things are unrelated, and again shows nothing.


Scientists also discovered that long sexual abstinence can be responsible of "religious
delirium creating visions and making people ear voices"

Again this shows nothing, but this is extremely hard to believe, so would you mind giving a source?

Again, scientists as atheist missionaries would:

A: Offend persons of faith, which make up about 95% of USA.

B: REALLY, REALLY, offend any scientist who is not atheist.

[Black Dragon]

As the latest numbers shows? My numbers are from the exit polls of the 1998 elections. And altough the USA makes up only about 5% of the population, it makes for a much greater proportion of the gaming population, due to it's strong economy and the fact the Firaxis is itself in the USA. The 1 billion Christian figure is fairly old, and I'm sure it's taken a much large percentage since then. Secondly, the countries where their are the most atheists would be communistic and ex-communistic countries, both of which where not many have the money to buy Civ 3. And since the company is based in the USA, I don't see what the problem is with putting America first...

And secondly, each civ getting 1 religon in the beginning and sticking with it the whole game would be boring, and your ideas basically amount to religon/atheism being as similar as the different civs are.

I like the Idea that ALL civs start with animism, than later in the game, other religons could spring up and you deal with them. Atheism could also spring up later in the game as well.

The religon would be make beleive, but have different attributes, say:

Glorckatisim: Denounces Birth Control, encourages people to have big families. Gets a growth Bonus.

Moochianity: Says some people are born better than others, which gives the upper class an excuse to bully the poor. Gets a police bonus.

Zaoemism: This is the only true faith, and must be spread. Caries a morale bonus.

Turywenzism: God wants people to be more free. An economy bonus, and this religon will try to force you into becoming either a theocracy/republic/democracy.

Gewism: Says Idleness is of the devil. Gets an industry bonus.

Atheism: Has no promise of afterlife to pacify the poor, but secular science is encouraged. Gets a Hapiness PENALTY, but a science bonus.

Weird Cult: Peanlties to growth, economy, industry, and science.


These religons would "pop up" in cities, and would by itself build temples where they are tolerated(except for Atheism), send out missionaries. They would begin converting populaces, and you would see a screen showing how much of your people follow each religon.

Than, as others have mentioned, you would have different setting for what you do with each religon, such as:

Make State Religon: This is the official state religon(or atheism). This religon will grow much faster, but citizens of other faiths will become very unhappy. You can now build temples for your religon, unless you chose atheism. Missionaries can also now be built by you.

Encourage: Your government supports this faith, and you may now build missionaries of this faith. This religon will grow faster, but will also tend to make people of other faiths unhappy unless they encouraged too.

No interference: The religon operates by itself in it's missionaries and will build temples by itself. Will grow at a normal rate.

Discouraged: This religon's growth rate will be slowed, and the people of this religon will become more unhappy. In a communism, all religons can not be set higher than this. No temples of this religon will be built. Citizens of militant religons may demand you set another religon to this.

Persecuted: The religon is banned and people of it's faith are enslaved/killed. The religon will start shrinking quickly. Citizens of this religon will try to flee and will start showing up in other civs.A percentage of your military equal to the percentage of this religon in your populace will switch to the control of this faith This is considered a major atrocity in the later game, and if your populace is liberal enough, will become unhappy. Citizens of militant faiths may demand you set other religons to this. If the persecuted religon is Atheism, however, the Atheists will switch to other faiths, and most of them will be unwilling to die for their "faith".




<font size=1 color=444444>[This message has been edited by Black Dragon (edited June 05, 1999).]</font>

[paraclet]

and don't forget Satanism...It should also be a possible choice of religion...With many weird symbols making other tribes affraid and giving a military bonus...

[Black Dragon]

Satanism is covered under "Weird Cult".

[Kris Huysmans]

You forget some religions, Namely the religions that don't believe in the individual and think it is just a part of everthing the real individual(Zen, Buddhism,...).
They have:
1 unhappy citizens for every military unit(who kills an other kills a part of the real individual)
No corruption in any city(we steals something from an other steals it from himself)



<font size=1 color=444444>[This message has been edited by Kris Huysmans (edited June 10, 1999).]</font>

[Black Dragon]

Hmm, how about we call Zen/Buddhism type religons say, Fuuchuism to avoid using real names.

And that Citizen unhappy for each military unit would be way too crippling for any player which got this religon, so I'd recommend no penalty for units away from cities, and balance that out by giving that religon a corruptioon reduction, but not eliminating corruption.

[Cartagia the Great]

I don't like the idea of using unreal names for religions any more than I do for civilizations or governments. After all, do you cosnider it fun to play with the Grandzik Empire, under the Foltism government who fanaticly follow the Retrical religion? I sure wouldn't.

What I do believe is right would be having broader based religions with the inclusion of which country it came out of. There for the religions would be : Ancestor Worship, Paganism, Monotheism, Philosophical, Athiest and maybe one more. With the nations it sprang from, however, you could end up with Greeks following Arab paganism, or the Celts die ahrd followrs of Chinese Monotheism.

Also, in real life, just because a government is anti-religion, does not mean the people have to be. The Soviet Union was anti-religion, and yet a majority of Russians are still Orthodox Christians, to my knoledge. The same holds true in China, just because the Chinese government may be agaisnt religion, does not mean that people do not follow any religion. Also, a few years back, i believe the Chinese Govenrment stopped it's percecutions against Confusionists, but I could be wrong on that.

[Black Dragon]

Cartagia: I disagree. I think your "chinese monotheism" sounds even more bland than Turywenzism. Secondly, have make believe, but specific religons would allow them to have specific attributes. Zaoesim would give you better troops, and Moochianity would help you control your followers. Your Civ Name and government form would still be real. Chinese Monotheism in addition to being extremely bland, it would be hard to put attributes on each form of religon. (I.e.From Jamaician Philosphy to Zulu Monotheism)

And while you can not shut down a religon, you can limit it by forbidding temples to be built, or by activley putting members of that religon to the sword. And during the Soviet Union, 40% of the ppl believed in God according to a street poll, almost definitley lower than it would be if not for their government.

[Eggman]

Just as a comment, I don't think that using broader categories like Animism, Monotheism, Polytheism, etc. will be any less offensive than using Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, etc. Smart people know which religions fall where. Giving offensive attributes to Monotheism will just annoy a group of religions instead of just one.

The only safe ways to go is with made up names or abstracting religion (you don't know what religion the civ is, but you know that they are fanatical, devout, wishy-washy, etc.)

[paraclet]

Why "offend"...?
God believers just have the choice to choose a tribe with a deist forever option...And atheits like me can choose an atheist forever tribe...Other peoples should be able to choose a "religious but replaced by science option"...Like that everybody will be happy...
I can't wait to defeat religious tribes !
And stop your americentrism...Civ is not build exclusively for america (and even in America there is not 95 % of peoples believing in god like the last numbers proves..) and America is only 5 % of the world population...And if you want civ 3 to please the majority of the world's population then with china's 1.2 billion peoples and some other atheists asian countries there is only 1 billion real christians believers in the world which is less than 17 % of the world population...

[NotLikeTea]

After reading all the recent posts, I renew my stance that any representation of religions (as Christanity, Islam or Monotheism, Animism) is a bad idea, as is giving any religion or religion type any kind of bonuses. Boo! Hiss!

I think it should be in the game, but only abstractly, as a generally fear of outsiders that can be used. This would remain after a city is captured, making the people more firendly to their original civilization than the conquerors. Any religion (or belief) could be used for any purpose, with effort.