Paratroopers useless?

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by Catt
I have occasionally used them: (1) to airdrop from a core city across a narrow channel (airdropping 15 or 20 paratroppers gets some attention); and (2) to harrass and pillage behind enemy lines (generally after taking and enemy city with an airport intact).

...

Catt

This is the only use I have seen for them too. I'm still waiting for the right situation to occur, though...

Mech infantry is just a few techs away when you are about to chose to research for paras, and paras is a dead end. The choice is easy.

[Catt]

Originally posted by Olaf Hårfagre

Mech infantry is just a few techs away when you are about to chose to research for paras, and paras is a dead end. The choice is easy.

Yup. I will occasionally research Amphib Warfare on my own. I can't recall the last time I researched Advanced Flight. It always seems to come to me via peace negotiations or in a trade where the AI civ has nothing else to offer.

Catt

[Unregistered]

I've used both Paras & Marines before in civ3 w/ very good results. In fact, I'd have to say that they are actually pretty good models of real Paras & Marines. Both have very specific roles that they fill on the battlefield. And when they are actually working within those roles - establishing a beachhead or airhead - they are performing as "light infantry". Which means they have extremely limited supplies of ammo and basically *no* heavy weapons. (That last part is really important to understand, it is what drives the lower defense & attack values for them) They only have the weapons that they can carry into battle, either on the jump or slogging thru the surf. This means small arms, with a sprinkling of light mortars & maybe some light anti-tank weapons, a few satchel charges & the like. Not many tho. A light mortar, say a 60mm, will be broken down into two pieces, a base-plate & a tube and two guys will split those & carry them. A third guy (& a fourth & a fifth & a sixth too!) will carry a couple of mortar rounds each. So you not only have to hump it into combat, but you must also assemble it when you get there. Which can be a problem if the guy w/ the base-plate is 200 yards behind you, floating face-down in the surf. Paras & Marines depend on close support aircraft & naval guns for heavy weapons. Their main job (in the Para or Marine mode) is to take and secure an area long enough (which *should* mean hours, 4-8 at the most, not days) for the heavy infantry - preferably w/ some armored support - to arrive and link up w/ them. Any time this model isn't followed leads to heavy casualties for the Marines or Paras. Read about the drops @ Market-Garden or Crete in WWII or the abortive Cuban invasion in the early sixties and you will see what I mean.

I think most of the confusion here comes from the fact that Marines & Paras are very rarely actually used in their battlefield specialty roles in real life. Much of the time they actually are used on the battlefield as elite heavy infantry, with all that entails; divisional/regimental/company artillery and heavy weapons squads along w/ (usually anyway) close armor support and APC's. Since they typically have more training and a higher esprit de corps they generally are tougher than your "average" heavy infantry, which leads to the expectation that they will be better than the generic infantry offered by the game. Unfortunately the game doesn't have the ability to portray a unit with two different sets of attack/defend values with the built in game logic to determine when which set of values would apply, so you get the specialty unit w/o the ability to function in a heavy infantry role. Which, in game terms, is ok, given all the other constraints that drive game development today.

I'd agree that the paradrop range leaves a bit to be desired, but even that isn't too bad. Paras aren't typically dropped too far ahead of the front lines, since you should be expecting to link up w/ them shortly after their drop so that they don't become roadkill. I do miss airfields though, and I am looking forward to having them again in ptw. I have to also note that the successful use of Paras irl depends pretty heavily on the element of surprise so that they can linked up with before the enemy can respond and wipe them out. In a tbs game, that means that you need to get to them w/ your tanks/MA and/or inf/MI on that *same* turn or they *will* be roadkill.

Cheers,

[vmxa1]

I do not use them as they seem superflous. I have whacked many though. In Civ2 that had some use, I don't see in Civ3.

[Jaybe]

Originally posted by Unregistered
...
Much of the time they actually are used on the battlefield as elite heavy infantry, with all that entails; divisional/regimental/company artillery and heavy weapons squads along w/ (usually anyway) close armor support and APC's. ... Unfortunately the game doesn't have the ability to portray a unit with two different sets of attack/defend values with the built in game logic to determine when which set of values would apply, so you get the specialty unit w/o the ability to function in a heavy infantry role. ...

That is why you just have to support them with artillery and armor in Civ3. In the game there are extra advantages for having additional number of units, and paratroops will defend in a stack before a tank.

I have recently found that if I have a city which will produce Marine/Paratroop in one less turn than Mech Inf I might produce it instead, at least to garrison my cities far from the front. Just in case that special situation comes up.

(Should I need extra units to use as Military Police or to suppress resistors/culture flip, I'll more likely produce longbows or swords.)

[XOR]

In WWII they also paradroped tanks, paratroopers also didnt just have paratroopers, they had gliders which could carry vehicles in to battle if you want to look at it from the historical point of view.

Now, back to the game, you cant make much use of them if they only paradrop 6 tiles away and only do so from airport cities. I have modified my game, so that paratroopers jump 8 instead of 6, but I dont know how to make them jump from non-airport cities.

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by XOR
In WWII they also paradroped tanks, paratroopers also didnt just have paratroopers, they had gliders which could carry vehicles in to battle if you want to look at it from the historical point of view.

Now, back to the game, you cant make much use of them if they only paradrop 6 tiles away and only do so from airport cities. I have modified my game, so that paratroopers jump 8 instead of 6, but I dont know how to make them jump from non-airport cities.

Who paradropped Tanks in WWII ? I've never heard of it. And no glider ever hauled a tank.

I believe the Sheridan was air-droppable on paper but it wasnt advisable in practice (I've seen "bits" fly off with impact).

[jshelr]

I've only seen the AI use para's once. A lone trooper floated down right next to a city I'd just captured on a foreign continent. I had the usual large stack on a mountain nearby. So, it was 3 4-unit infantry armies, 40 artillery, and 50 MA on my side, versus the para on the AI side. Despite the AI tactics, I was able to pull through.

[Panag]

Originally posted by SpencerH


Who paradropped Tanks in WWII ? I've never heard of it. And no glider ever hauled a tank.

I believe the Sheridan was air-droppable on paper but it wasnt advisable in practice (I've seen "bits" fly off with impact).

hi ,

the germans where good in it , .....

not what is a tank today , but the tank of those days , well , you dont want to meet it , ....

after that the US did it , ....

a mostly unknown , even stalin did it in 45 , ....

have a nice day

[Jaybe]

Originally posted by SpencerH
Who paradropped Tanks in WWII ? I've never heard of it. And no glider ever hauled a tank.
...

Light Tanks were hauled by gliders in WWII. Pz II's (and maybe Pz I's) by the Germans; Stuarts/Honeys by the Allies.

[Thrawn05]

Originally posted by eklektikos
@jdw22 ~ You can sell every last drop of your oil if you so wish. You just can't convince the AI to sell you any resource/luxury that it has but one of.

The last time I tried selling my last supply of a resource, that civ became furious with me (i asked for an offer).

[jshelr]

There is some other reason for the furious attitude. Selling your last resource is routinely ok and often a good idea.

[SpencerH]

I did some checking and I found that a few tanks (Tetrarch, M22 Locust) were hauled by large British Gliders (Hamilcar) and used succesfully in small numbers in some Brit airborne ops. You learn something every day . Not Stuarts though, 15 ton was too heavy (double the weight of the tetrarch or locust). I couldnt find anything on actual german or russian uses though.

[bbaws]

Paratroops are good for managing choke points, once used them against the Indians. Stacks of 6 or so on every square around their capital on the first turn of war. Bam all their trade agreements lapsed and four border cities flipped to me without a shot fired. I could have done it with helicopters but I had to use them for something just to enjoy that glorious animation.

[vmxa1]

Stacks of 6 modern unit of any kind should work for that. The issues is to me, would you rather have x paras or x mechinf?