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If you make the chokepoint wider, don't downgrade the terrain too much. I have a feeling that not controlling the chokepoints = doom. 
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::nodding:: I have a feeling you're right....though one thing it may well do is prompt an early, landward use of some of those nukes....especially if we remove the armies off the bat...YOW! The thought of staring down the barrel of a few hundred angry MA/MI's is.....bone chilling....
-=Vel=-Comment
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WARNING: MASSIVE SPOILERS AHEAD!
All right, I just started this scenario, and will add things to this post when I encounter them. I plan on playing the first turn a couple of times, saving when something happens, so if interested give a yell, and I'll post a save for the given situation.
First of all: I've read many of the comments so far, and I agree. Given enough time, it might be possible to win this with a domination, or conquest, even if the odds are so bad. But I'm pretty certain though, that without these two victory conditions, the AIs will race towards the stars so fast that it becomes impossible for the humans to do it... so limiting the turns given would be the best solution.
When will the scenario start, right before the next turn happens? I was wondering whether I'm allowed to draft in the first turn, before the real war breaks out. So far, I haven't done this yet.
I noticed you gave many ships a name, a nice addition, but not all of them were done like that. I hope you get around to naming all of the BSs (Call one Brigitte Bardot if you run out of inspiration), Aegis and Carriers, and leave the destroyers as is. It would make it more personal... I plan on taking quite a bit of risk with the USS Velocyrix
I followed the rest of the instructions, but was unable to get a spy amongst the Chinese. I had to reinitialize the scenario... second time everything went well.
Next, I kept hitting space for every unit. I hope in the final thing, these get set to fortify instead... Just a principal thing, I don't think it matters much. But then I got surprised; I always play with the 'wait before end of turn' option, but you had that option turned off... oh well, one less save
The initial turn sure is cool, that's another reason why I would give that save to the board, and not the one immediately following the first turn. You could do that by giving all units orders like we did know (maybe setting the first forts, which have a chance of getting run over to fortify), and save there. It gives people a little more feeling for what is going on, and those initial air fights sure are fun too watch (especially since the Americans win most of them (all of them, in my seed)).
Other things to note: My Japanese spy was captured on the first turn
, and two of the initial attack subs survive (nearly three in my game). That's not necesarrily bad, but they have a strange name after that...
Something I didn't pay attention to the first turn, did you intentionally left the iron unconnected, or was it bombed in my game? Damn annoying I can't rebuild some of the RRs... that's one of the reasons I would love having the choice of placing the first 10 units, I would certainly shield some resources by putting a unit on top of them. Oh well, adds to the challenge, let's say
I don't know why you gave the Americans stealth fighters, so far all of them got shot down. I don't see the reason for it either, normally stealth would mean lower chance of getting intercepted, not higher... you didn't change them to 100% interceptable, did you? Oh well, they're all gone in the first turn, and I won't build others... maybe stealth bombers have more luck. If I ever get that far, it is getting grim...
Turn 3: The Germans are putting up a nice fight, and I barely can hold them off. Their troops are very well spaced: so far every turn it has been close, but they never overran me. The Russians, however, are less good: they refuse to attack me over land. I did put one army of MIs there, and the other chokepoint was well defended, but not better than the Germans. It might be an idea to give them a fortress in the hill, so they can rest a little. So far, they only killed one of my MAs, which ventured out on their territory to pillage a road I was unable to bombard on the first turn. They are however trying with transports, and as half my navy was shot down by those darn Chinese, I can't reach them in time. Could become interesting.
War weariness is already getting hard: I had to put lux to 20% to keep the entertainers at bay, as a result it is taking me another 7 turns until I get the first tech. Maybe the drafting in the first turn was not a good idea after all, so far I haven't really used those conscripts, apart from creating some distractions for the bombers, and transports. One advantage of testing is that it is not considered a cheat if you restart
Other observations: so far the Germans and the Rus have a RoP, other then that all Civs trade. The Chinese have been building their navy, and have sank about one third of my fleet... as a result if both them and the Russians decide to send transports at the same time, I can only counter one of them. It might be a good idea to give the Americans additional subs, as scouts. Or place the existing a little further, so they cover a bit more ground (erh...ocean) at the start. The Japanese, however, did nothing so far, except killing my spies (I tried each turn, but was unable to infiltrate them. As a result I don't know what they're up to) It's been quite interesting, and I hunger for more!
Turn 4: What was that saying, be careful what you wish for? Right. Both the Germans and the Rus showed up at my borders with MA armies... I wonder what they're up to
One strange thing was that the Germans practically withdraw from the fortress that gets overrun in the first turn, leaving just a MI and a MA in place. I gladly took control of it again. Vel, I must say that the placing is very well done: that one tile of desert to the side of it means that suprise forces can fairly quickly attack you, as even without a road it can be crossed within on turn.
The Japanese sabotaged my ToE construction (I agree it should be out, but right now I'd like to have it constructed), and just entered my borders with a transport. Further the Chinese have one transport as well, and the Russians are bringing 3. A good thing I have most of my borders occupied by now, and the AIs have no marines... even those two scouts come in handy (I was wondering why I got those, now I know)
I managed to infiltrate Kyoto, and returned the favor: they now do not have a spy anymore with me. I wish I was able to try it too with the other Civs, but I lack the cash... maybe it would be good to give us some more gold, after all, the AIs have enough cash to buy half of our cities...
Turn 5: I just was hit by 4 MA armies, and as a result lost my just reconquered chokepoint again with massive losses on my side. As more armies approached, I had no other choice then to nuke them. I should have done this the previous turn. The Russians were also nuked (again a few armies were approaching), another quarter of my navy was sunk by the Germans, but so far I haven't seen any transports from the East yet. War weariness is staying steady, even with the two nukes. I am in firm control of the inland sea, but other than that, I'm unable to keep my navy afloat. The AIs seem to be building all kind of things, except troops and transports... The Chinese are yet to awaken, but I fear that I am facing a nice surprise from my Japanese brothers, as they now have a RoP with the Russians. So far the space race is steady, I haven't build anything yet, but neither have the AIs.
I'm planning on just a few more turns, then I'll end this first test. So far the troops seem to be well balanced and spread out, but my research is seriously lacking, my navy is all but alive, and I had to use 2 nukes already. This is surely a big challenge!
Turn 8: I quit. I just was trown into anarchy, and an extra four turns do not make a good test anymore. Maybe I should have set my lux rate a bit higher, but so far I haven't got any research yet, and I didn't want to burden it more... still 3 turns to the first tech, running a small deficit.
I now have a pretty good insight in what makes this particular scenario roll, and so far found it very challenging, but doable. What the AIs have left of their initial forces:
Germany: 201 MI, 63 MA, 30 RA, 3 trannies, 5 sub, 14 dest, 1 BS, 26 jets, 1 army. no bombers.
Russia: 243 MI, 30 MA, 42 RA, 2 trannies, 5 nu.sub, 6 dest, 2 BS, 32 jets, 2 bombers, 3 armies (and a leader).
Japan: 203 MI, 64 MA, 11 RA, 7 trannies, 1 BS, 1 Aegis, 1 sub, 14 dest, 26 bombers, 29 jets, 4 armies.
China: 147 MI, 83 MA, 1 tranny, 3 sub, 7 dest, 1 aegis, 26 bombers, 58 jets, no armies (what, they disbanded them? I only sunk one transport IIRC).
All have one part of the ship built, except China who has none. They aren't building anything either.
If I compare this to the start, it seems that most were building up MIs... it might be a good idea to give them more MIs, so they can build something else. Or somehow tweak it that they do not build those things so often, I was hoping that with the new patch the AIs would go for MAs more often... I read somewhere that you gave each AI civ 12 free units per city, could this be partly obstructing it? Maybe when they get less free units, they will focus on quality a bit more. They have enough cash, even if you'd double their forces they wouldn't run into problems.
What I would tweak in the next version is to give us some more cash (nothing extraordinary, just 4K or so), some more subs for scouting, and one major thing: give the AIs marines!!! As it is now, there is a cheap tactic (which I will fully exploit in the next test run ): instead of trying to build expensive MIs and MAs, you can build the first couple of turns swordmen, a rato of one per city per turn. Use these to fully occupy the coast, and you don't have to fear any invasion anymore. So what if they sink your navy, if they're just bombing it doesn't matter much. This has to be countered, it is just too cheap.
Finally: Get the ToE out. This would totally negate the space race feeling, but make it a ToE race...
I hope this long post actually did some good, I like very much what I see, and with a little tweaking this can become the ultimate in scenarios.
DeepO
BTW, the USS Velocyrix was a though one, it was one of the last big ships to fall prey to the Germans. I really grew fond of the little guy
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Sorry guys, I didn't read your last few posts, as I was replying for a few hours while playing the game. I have to say you were right in many places, though
The race towards uranium would be very cool, but please make sure it doesn't move... if it would disappear from the island, there is no chance of securing it. As to the chokepoints: I thought the German one was good, maybe a little hill instead of mountain on their side of the border would help. The Russian I agree completely, there was little challenge there.
Extra transports: Very nice, but I would make a big difference in the different AIs: give Japan and China 3 or 4 times the transports, but don't do the same with the German and Russians... they do build when they think they need it. Just make sure you add Marines!!
Also, I found the inland sea too little of a challenge, with some careful maneuvering in the beginning, you control it quite easily, and as neither the Germans nor the Russians build transports there, there is no real threat anymore. I more or less used it as a killing spot for bombers, with the carrier fully loaded with F15s.Giving the AIs transports in the sea could be interesting.
As to the wonders: In my game it was not only the AIs but also me who became too distracted... Sistine sure is tempting, with the massive War Weariness. And the Pyramids, well, I was kind of going for that one as well.
Aeson, did your AIs started warring on each other? And did you build the ToE to get to a quick result?
One thing I don't completely agree with is that domination is not possible with the full 540 turns in front of you. I might be wrong, but if you manage to build up massive forces, you could probably take out one civ in a few turns. The WW should be ok then, and doesn't this get reset when in anarchy? It might pay of to just keep 20 turns of Anarchy, meanwhile conquering one civ, building up again, and repeat with the next. No way it is going to be easy, though.
DeepOComment
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DeepO, your timing could not have been better! I was just settling in here to make the changes on my list, and now have a few more to add! Thank ya!
Sounds like we've got all the ingredients in place then. With some beefed up naval transport capacity, and maybe some more MA all around (since they seem reluctant to build their own, I figured I'll just give them some more!), along with a healthy does of Marines, some tweaks and adjustments to the choke points to make them a bit tougher to hold, I think we might have ourselves a real winner here!
I'm off to make the changes outlined, and this time, instead of posting the raw bic file, will post the first turn, exactly as it will appear to the players....how's that? Back in a couple of whiles with the changes!
-=Vel=-Comment
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Great Vel, I'll be happy to give it another run... tomorow. the time difference is not really helping
DeepOComment
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'tis true, bro...tis true!
'k...in addition to the changes I posted earlier, here's the skinny on the other changes I've made so far. I've finished the changes, will play out the first turn as and save as the players will see the final run through.
1) All border units will be fortified, per request.
2) All iron and coal has been roaded to facilitate railroad repairs
3) Choke point has been widened on both the Russian and German front to make it a bit harder to hold.
4) Both American armies have been deleted.
5) All enemy AI have been given 60-80 marines (13.9.1 marines, btw), 20 extra DD's and 20 extra trannies.
6) AI naval presence in the inland sea has been bulked up, and now includes a few trannies (4, 2 for germany, 2 for the Rus).
7) More ships now have names, including one named after each person who has posted in the testing thread thus far....
8) America has been given a bit more cash
9) All wonders have been built (by various Chinese cities), 'cept for the Colassus (maybe give America one small chance for a bit more money).
10) Prices of the ship parts have been doubled across the board.
I'm off to play out the first turn and save....will post the file here as soon as I'm done!
-=Vel=-Comment
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Alamo, v0.2 - Beta
Here's the latest file, exactly as the players will see it....good luck, and godspeed!
-=Vel=-Comment
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Just playtested the first two turns, and OMG what a difference your sugesstions have made! The initial battles for the choke points were all tight and VERY dynamic! It took just about everything I had (even stripping all the veteran+ MI's from America's cities) to recapture all the choke points overrun by German and Russian forces. I dunno...things are looking dark indeed for the good guys....wow....kudos guys, for your ideas to date! I think we've got a winner on our hands!
-=Vel=-Comment
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/me got his butt kicked in the first version, but is still looking forward to trying out v0.2.
/me is a bit odd like that.
/me represents the 'average Civ player' in this testing. The other guys (I'm looking at YOU Aeson! ) are too good.
If I'm posting here then Counterglow must be down.Comment
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An interesting problem... The USS Aeson's Pride is a Carrier. My first time through, part of my naval tactics involved disbanding the Carriers to use as Battleship parts. Perhaps humility is the best policy.
A question though, is it meant to just end the turn as is, changing builds as necessary (read: workers and 2 settlers), or can we reposition MI's, bombard with RA's, and attack with MA's? It makes a huge difference, as I lose 4 forts without any changes, but can hold onto them all if fortified units are moved around a bit.Comment
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They never started warring with each other in my game. I built the ToE, but it was pretty frustrating. The AI sabotaged my production 4 times, and then the turn I was going to finish it off, my civ revolted. I had researched Space Flight before finishing it, and Got the Laser and Superconductor from ToE. That meant only 2 advances total were needed to research.Originally posted by DeepO
Aeson, did your AIs started warring on each other? And did you build the ToE to get to a quick result?
The other wonder which really helped the first time through was Magellan's. I prebuilt most of the Spaceship parts between the others and the Palace.Comment
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Hey man! The way I've got it envisioned is that the only first turn action players will be allowed to make in the finished version is to change production.....having to fight to retake those choke points (or retreat to some secondary line) is, in my mind, the very first strategic decision to be made (I too, lost four forts on the Russian/German attack, and it took very nearly every scrap of manpower I could put together to retake them....perhaps I'd have been better off to have simply retreated....not sure yet....)
Hmmm....we can make Aeson's Pride something besides a carrier if you'd prefer....
-=Vel=-Comment
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Warmongering Poet ... ... me likey!
tried to play this game again, but my comp mysteriously crashed on me on the second turn ... oh well.
If I'm posting here then Counterglow must be down.Comment
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Thought you might get a kick outta that one!
And it *may be* the case that there are simply too many units on the map now, and its starting to hose up some systems. If that's the case, I can go through and strip out some of the defensive units to bring the total numbers down some.
I'm curious to hear how the AI will use its newly founded Marine Corps....
-=Vel=-Comment
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