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a few observations on leader generation

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  • #46
    how if at all has the patch changed the equation for leader creation?

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    • #47
      STOP THE PRESSES (or forums in this case )

      After THREE WEEKS of play, I have FINALLY gotton my FIRST leader playing as the Americans.

      But thats not all!

      Those FREAKIN' english killed him before I could get to the nearest city!!!

      I want to throw the freaking game out the damn window!!!

      I must now refrain from becoming a mad man now.
      I drink to one other, and may that other be he, to drink to another, and may that other be me!

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      • #48
        I have had 2 leaders at once, actually 2 leaders generated in the same turn very close to each other on the battlefield. It was the only time ive had 2 leaders active at once.

        My guess is that it could work something like this.....
        16 side dice is rolled before each hit point is determined (12 sided dice if you have militistric or the small wonder for more leaders).
        This dice is based on the seed and predictable if you reload.. so a sequence could be
        1,4,6,1,10,13,7,16 and so on.....

        If your elite unit wins AND the dice is on a set number (say 16) then you get a leader. If your unit wasn't elite then you get an upgrade...

        When i stop playing the game so much it will be very interesting to pull out the debugger and have a bit of a poke around... if i ever stop playing it lol.. civ1 took me about 6 years..

        zedar

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        • #49
          I've never had a game with less than three leaders. This is in, what? Eight games now? The most I've had is seven, in the second Poly tournament game with the most UNmilitaristic English.

          I've had at least thirty total leaders, including half a dozen from defending (though never while defending in a city). I've never had more than one leader at a time. There is a window on the military advisor that says "available leader". Not "leaderS", but singular. It certainly seems to me that only one leader at a time can be had, and as someone else said, barring proof to the contrary (like a screenie showing two leaders at once) that's what I will continue to believe.

          - Sirian

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          • #50
            Reliable Leader Generator

            The following is a fairly reliable way to generate leaders, but there is a fair chance that you will not actually be able to use that leader.

            1) Wait until the AI has railroads.
            2) Sail 1 transport full of the highest defense units (hopefully elites, or at least veterans) you have to the AI and land them on the best defensive terrain you can find that is connected to their railroad.
            3) Declare war on the AI.
            4) Watch as the AI charges you with every available unit and wait for a leader to emerge.
            5) If you survive, load the leader on the transport immediately and try to get home.

            I have watched several leaders appear only to be killed when the AI overwhelms my landing force. If you haven't had a leader before, you might use the leader to form an army out of any remaining units. The army will probably die, but not before winning at least one victory which will enable you to build the heroic epic and probably the military academy.
            It's never too late to shut the **** up and hope for the best. - Kentonio
            If social security were private, it would be prosecuted as a Ponzi scheme. - me
            Check out https://shauchi.wixsite.com/fire

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            • #51
              Hey Sirian,

              are you the same Sirian from the Diablo2 lurkerslounge? and Sirians guide to sorceresses?

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              • #52
                pchang,

                I've seen other posts (by you, perhaps?) detailing how the AI will throw human waves of troops at mech infantry on a RR'd mountain. True, huh? If so... does doing what you suggest qualify as somewhat of an exploit?

                Thrawn05 - patience, my friend, patience. It's all luck, and can be frustrating. I really wished I could have saved a few of the leaders (total of 4 or 5, I think) I got in one game for later ones

                Zedar - As is (bel)Zedar from the Belgariad/Mallorean? If so, cool name.

                -Arrian
                grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Arrian
                  pchang,

                  I've seen other posts (by you, perhaps?) detailing how the AI will throw human waves of troops at mech infantry on a RR'd mountain. True, huh? If so... does doing what you suggest qualify as somewhat of an exploit?
                  Somebody else noticed that first. Exploit? Possibly, however, that is the computer response to any invasion when it has railroads, so this "exploit" is part of the natural course of events for anyone who fights a war with the AI when the AI has railroads. I mostly see this with infantry vs. waves of cavalry.
                  It's never too late to shut the **** up and hope for the best. - Kentonio
                  If social security were private, it would be prosecuted as a Ponzi scheme. - me
                  Check out https://shauchi.wixsite.com/fire

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                  • #54
                    Hmm, I'll have to try it sometime just to see it. I suppose it isn't an exploit. At least any more than using the UN in Civ II to force peace every time you took a city (or group cities) so that you could consolidate (get those howitzers back inside a city!) and then provoke the AI to war again in the next turn

                    Having a big, tough enemy can do wonders for your chances of getting leaders. A large opponent is more dangerous, of course, but what it really means is that it will take you longer to destroy his army in the field. More battles. More elite units. More leaders. I got 3 last night as the Babylonians, and the game is still in the mid-industrial era.

                    -Arrian
                    grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                    The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

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                    • #55
                      Has anyone noticed an increase in leader generation in blitz scenarios (or multi-defense in the same turn)? The other night I played one of the few games where I waited until the modern age for the final military assault. I had been at constant war the whole game, in purposely prolonged combat. Often I was fighting on as many as 4 fronts, but up until my Modern Armor, I had only generated 2 leaders. (thats in italics because I usually don't get any) Once my Modern Armor started cleaning up, and I became accustomed to their blitz ability, I started generating leaders left and right. 4 of them in just 3 turns, and another one a few turns later. In all cases I used the first leader before another was created. Also, the leaders always were generated on the second successful attack in the turn. I'm sure everyone has noticed the mandatory multiple defense/turn upgrades. Perhaps it is the same for multiple attacks/turn as well? I would guess that I had close to 200 victories with my Modern Armor elites, and at least double that with various other elite forces before that. It's certainly possible that this was just an abnormal occurance, but having over 4 times the leader generation per blitz victory seems a bit much.

                      As far as the "exploit" defensive invasion, I don't see it as very bad when compared to the ROP invasion. It is quite easy to completely take out a Civ in only a few turns once they are railroaded and give a ROP. It is a bit more difficult to conquer the same Civ by first landing a force, having to defend against the AI offensive, and then counter-attacking. There might be the leader generation factor, but leaders seem less significant in the later eras, other than perhaps 1 or 2 needed for the UN and a palace relocation.

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                      • #56
                        You can get leaders from defending cities. Great for putting them to immediate use.

                        Fighting a "defensive" war is probably the most cost effective way to generate leaders. Park troops on mountain fortresses 2 squares away from enemy city in enemy territory. Be sure to have lots of bombaring units. Enemy attacks and gets weakened before hitting your troops.
                        Visit First Cultural Industries
                        There are reasons why I believe mankind should live in cities and let nature reclaim all the villages with the exception of a few we keep on display as horrific reminders of rural life.-Starchild
                        Meat eating and the dominance and force projected over animals that is acompanies it is a gateway or parallel to other prejudiced beliefs such as classism, misogyny, and even racism. -General Ludd

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                        • #57
                          In my current game, the cavs are generating plenty of leaders...
                          Probably because they're beating up on a killer-civ who had a few too many old kinghts and Immortals
                          It's all my territory really, they just squat on it...!
                          She didn't declare war on me, she's just playing 'hard to get'...

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                          • #58
                            btw, someone mentioned they noticed that units were upgraded more likely if they fight more than once per turn. This is correct, any unit that fights twice per turn and kills both enemy units it fought gets upgraded. Until the modern age (or for Germany with panzers) the only way to see this is on defense (get attacked twice). A third victory seems to always bring you another upgrade (if you started with regular or conscript).

                            The other thing that may or may not be true (I haven't tested any of this) is that you don't need to win twice on offense or defense to get a 'for sure' upgrade. If on your turn you win on offense and then the same unit wins again on defense, then your unit should be upgraded (this is sort of a rare natural occurance)

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                            • #59
                              I've been skimming this thread, and it's a buch of crap.

                              First, whoever said he got a leader from the ocean was lying. This does not happen. End of story.

                              Second, there is a FIXED PROBABILITY of generating a leader. The reason you think that it's close battles, or difficult battles, etc. is because you remember those instances of getting a leader better. This probability is larger for Militaristic civs, but IT IS FIXED. Firaxis has confirmed this. End of story.

                              Finally, there is a FIXED CHANCE OF PROMOTION. Militaristic civs have a larger chance, but IT IS FIXED. Again, Firaxis has confirmed this. End of story.

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                              • #60
                                P.S. The specifics are in a thread listed in the 'must-read' thread. The guy is right. (^^^ at Skywalker)
                                I do believe double-wins guarantee-ing promotion were mentioned though...although I think it was said that you need to win twice AGAIN to guarantee promo #2.

                                Anyway - the link is there - go see for yourselves
                                It's all my territory really, they just squat on it...!
                                She didn't declare war on me, she's just playing 'hard to get'...

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