Scouting

[Aeson]

Originally posted by ducki
Another option, instead of Ctrl+Shift+Q might be (if you're not on Mac) to repeatedly generate maps in the Editor and look at how the Terrain Bands flow.

The Editor certainly is a great way to get a feel for maps. For me it's hard to visualize exactly what I'm going to be seeing in game though, so actually playing starts blind is still important too.

I like guessing where there nearest coast will be on a start (if one isn't visible of course ), and seeing how close I was. I've ended up passing on some really good looking starts (which was what I was looking for in the first place) by getting sidetracked with these type games... it ends up "Cool, within 2 tiles!"-> Ctrl-Shift-Q-> "Ooops, wasn't that 3 Cows and a Luxury?"

[Sheik]

About the map fitting together

I got this the first time I generated:
It seems to fit together about half the time for me.

[Theseus]

I've often noticed continental "fits" as well... I have always assumed that that was purposefully part of the map generation routine.

[GusSmed]

With all due respect, I think the early scouting strategy you describe works because you're using relatively easy settings: Huge, Pangea, No Barbarians.

I diddled around with this opening on Standard, Random, Raging Barbarians, and I had very mixed results.

One time it paid off quite handsomely, with an extra Settler and all of the second level techs (mathematics, etc.), plus one third level tech, Literature. I had a significant tech lead on the three AI civilizations I'd been trading with, which is quite unusual for 2000 BC.

However, most of the time it failed miserably. More typically I'd only get to open 3-4 huts, getting maybe 50 gold and a conscript warrior. The land masses I started on simply didn't have that many huts to begin with, and the AI players of course was cleaning up any huts that were in their areas.

The barbarian setting didn't seem all that important. The camps don't seem to show up until roughly 2000 BC, by which time you've gotten most of the use out of your scouts. A relatively low Barbarian setting probably does matter on Large or Huge maps, since the amount of space you need to explore is larger, and hence the scouts have a longer lifespan.

My net feeling is that this strategy turns the opening into a crapshoot on Standard maps. If I go for a relatively small expansion of 4-5 total cities, and then start prepping for an Archer or Horseman rush, I have more consistent results. Not anywhere as nice as the best case, but much better than the average case for the Scout opening.

- Gus

[ducki]

Ok, I tried this up until 2070BC.
I like it!

I only got 1 town, no settlers and 1 or 2 warriors from huts, but I'm still not behind on cities yet, so that's probably why.

I got a lot of techs, though.
I have yet to complete research on anything.

I was close on The Wheel, but just traded for it.
Now that I'm close on Ironworking, it'll probably pop from a hut.

[ducki]

Also, I've seen an awful lot of my continent and gained first contact with Ragnar and Isabella.

I have yet to trade for a map.

In all, this is a nice strategy.

I should note, this is Large Pangea with 8 or 10 civs, I forget, and Sedentary Barbs.
I really never noticed the bands of terrain before, but now that you've pointed it out, Aeson, I see them everywhere, and when they don't go horizontally, I know a body of water is near.

Great observations!

[GusSmed]

Originally posted by ducki
Now that I'm close on Ironworking, it'll probably pop from a hut.

My understanding is that huts never give you something you're researching, so as to avoid short-changing you (i.e. getting a tech you'd get next turn anyway isn't much of a reward).

This means it's a good idea if you're doing serious hut popping to be researching one of the 1st level techs so you'll get a more valuable second level tech.

- Gus

[Aeson]

With all due respect, I think the early scouting strategy you describe works because you're using relatively easy settings: Huge, Pangea, No Barbarians.

No doubt these are the optimal settings for using Scouts. Different aspects of what Scouts can do are useful on all sorts of maps though.

However, most of the time it failed miserably. More typically I'd only get to open 3-4 huts, getting maybe 50 gold and a conscript warrior. The land masses I started on simply didn't have that many huts to begin with, and the AI players of course was cleaning up any huts that were in their areas.

Granted that the Scout's hut opening bonuses are closely tied to the size of the landmass and luck, nobody would debate that, but that's not their only purpose. Most importantly, they uncover the map faster than any other unit can, letting the player know where to focus expansion and direct research most effectively, along with getting contacts earlier.

By turn 5 an Expansionist civ (on a standard map) can know pretty much what they're up against on their continent and plan accordingly, whereas other civs are just getting the first scouting unit (most of the time 1 movement) built. The larger the continent, the more advantage the Expansionist civ will have at the end of the scouting period. No use building and researching towards an Archer/Horseman rush just to find out Greece/Zululand is your only neighbor, or worse yet, nobody... Making contact 5-10 turns later may very well mean 5-10 turns of working or researching in the wrong direction. On small landmass starts, Pottery is an important tech towards Mapmaking and for building up population to do serious researching. Scouts will let you know to research Alphabet/Writing earlier, so you can get off that lonesome isle sooner.

Turn advantage of this nature isn't always obvious, but can have a tremendous effect on the course of the game. Often a difficult game is one where if you were in the same position a few turns earlier it would be easy. Missing out on a good Cavalry rampage because your opponents get Nationalism before you can strike comes to mind. Many times an important resource spotted a few turns earlier/later will completely change the game.

Contacts especially are worth more early than late, as an expansionist civ should be able to always get something in exchange for their starting techs. This is in essense as much 'free' tech as it would be from a hut, as the AI's are going to trade their starting techs to someone anyways. If they meet the others first, you won't have anything to offer. The effect is you can determine which civs are left out of the tech trading right from the start, instead of being the one left out. As the Americans, you can give your (non-Industrious) neighbors a very good shot at building the Pyramids for you, which is always nice.

Finding an AI with a worker in their capitol is hit or miss, but the earlier you make contact, the better the chances. This can have almost as much effect as a Settler from a hut, hampering the AI's expansion, and increasing yours. An AI on a river often will have a Worker in their capitol after the first road/irrigation or road/mining is done. By making contact before then it can totally change the course of the game.

It is a gambler's trait in a way (huts, buying workers), but for me it's more about sound planning by having the map information and contacts as early as possible. So often you read about players complaining how they aren't 'in the loop' with regards to the tech race, and it's something that happens at the very beginning of the game, making contacts too late.

If that's not enough, you can still use Scouts for resource denial, which has thankfully been gimped a bit, but can still totally ruin a game (from a difficulty standpoint). I've also fought 'Scout only' wars with distant AI's, which is really a lot of fun, leading Swordsmen around in circles in their own territory (stay away from roads!) until the AI's are willing to pay for peace. Any two movement troops can do this as well, but it's just something to do with 'obsolete' Scouts.

The Settler and techs from huts are really just bonuses. If that's all Expansionist means to a player it isn't going to seem all that great most of the time on smaller landmass games. This thread was meant to be mostly about those less obvious advantages offered by the trait and some ways to take advantage of the obvious advantages better. It's not a "Expansionist is the Ultimate trait" type thread at all (unless it's a Huge/Pangaea map of course ).

[Aeson]

The only time a hut will give the tech you're researching is if it's the last ancient era tech available to research (not blocked off tech tree or last one till middle ages). A good idea is to make sure you are researching the tech you least want to get when opening a lot of huts. The Government techs will be the very last 2, and you can't get them from huts if you make it into the middle ages first, so research Construction or Currency yourself if you ever get to this point and there are still huts around.

For a very quick Monarchy, you could research Alphabet on your own slowly (more likely with no funding at all), to block off most of the tech tree. Can't do this in conjunction with a Chariot buildup though... so it's not terribly useful. If you trade for all the starting techs (besides Alphabet), that would mean only 5 techs from huts needed before hitting Monarchy. I think the order would be Mysticism-> Iron Working-> Horseback Riding-> Polytheism-> Monarchy. If Japan isn't around you'd also need The Wheel.

Might actually be useful for the Iroquois (possibly Aztecs/Egyptians as well) on larger maps, as MW's are too good to pass up using for long, and getting Monarchy quick would allow for a much more productive golden age.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by GusSmed
With all due respect, I think the early scouting strategy you describe works because you're using relatively easy settings: Huge, Pangea, No Barbarians.

I diddled around with this opening on Standard, Random, Raging Barbarians, and I had very mixed results.

I have to agree with this (with all due respect to Aeson!). The two sample maps you posted reflect this: both are Huge, Pangea, No Barbs.

Aeson, the tone of your original thread makes it sound like Expansionist civs are extremly good in any given game, which simply isn't true, IMO. With everything "standard", Scouts are only really worth it about half time (just consider those times when you are alone on a continent, or when the local geography makes for linear exploration). Building 4-5 Scouts as a matter of course may not always be a good idea.

However, the other strategies given in the post is, as usual, excellent. You've certainly made it clear how to maximize the Expansionist trait.

Expansionist is clearly more powerful in multiplayer, simply because the AI is predictable while humans are not. Huts aside, sometimes it just really doesn't matter what "the lay of the land" is in SP games, because you're simply going to REX in a standard pattern anyways.


Dominae

[Dominae]

Re: Scouting

Originally posted by Aeson
Opening Huts:

Thanks to information given by Firaxis, it's not a lot easier to get those early settlers (and more of them). Remember that before opening any hut (which you'd like a settler out of), make sure none of your cities are producing a settler, you have no active settlers, and your number of cities doesn't exceed the average number per civ. This really makes building an early granary more viable, as your number of cities will be lower for the first 40 turns or so (a granary starts paying off after the second settler or thereabouts). Being expansionist allows the first non-scout build to be a granary, which can be paying off before 2000BC.

Wow, I didn't know...this is HUGE! I thought PTW made Settlers and cities more likely from huts, but I guess I was just really giving Expansionist a shot due to MP. This really helps early aggression, as you can Archer rush with only a few cities and expect to get Settlers from your Scouts.


Dominae

[GusSmed]

Originally posted by Aeson
By turn 5 an Expansionist civ (on a standard map) can know pretty much what they're up against on their continent and plan accordingly, whereas other civs are just getting the first scouting unit (most of the time 1 movement) built.

This is quite true. In my standard opening, I typically know what my immediate area is like, and who is adjacent, from scouting Warriors before I starting building Barracks, but that's it.

With a small force of Scouts, I found that I had seen the entire continent by that point.

The larger the continent, the more advantage the Expansionist civ will have at the end of the scouting period. No use building and researching towards an Archer/Horseman rush just to find out Greece/Zululand is your only neighbor, or worse yet, nobody...

Greece isn't all that bad to rush, it just takes 50% more strength. Zululand locks you into a slowmover rush, preferably Swordsmen, because you get serious attrition with Horsemen, so you might as well buy cheaper Archers or stronger Swordsmen. Immortals are ideal against Zululand.

No neighbor at all, however, completely changes how you should play.

Contacts especially are worth more early than late, as an expansionist civ should be able to always get something in exchange for their starting techs. This is in essense as much 'free' tech as it would be from a hut, as the AI's are going to trade their starting techs to someone anyways. If they meet the others first, you won't have anything to offer. The effect is you can determine which civs are left out of the tech trading right from the start, instead of being the one left out.

This is also a good point. In a typical start, I don't get anything for my starting tech. With the Scout start, typically I was able to trade for a couple of starting techs before the AI's locked me out. Of course, they still want deals weighted heavily in their favor, so often you can't get a deal unless you offer a 2 for 1 trade.

If that's not enough, you can still use Scouts for resource denial, which has thankfully been gimped a bit, but can still totally ruin a game (from a difficulty standpoint).

Er, how? Are you talking about leaving scouts inside enemy territory, standing on resources? I thought the AIs would eventually demand you move or declare war.

I've also fought 'Scout only' wars with distant AI's, which is really a lot of fun, leading Swordsmen around in circles in their own territory (stay away from roads!) until the AI's are willing to pay for peace. Any two movement troops can do this as well, but it's just something to do with 'obsolete' Scouts.

I've never done anything like that, it's hard to visualize that working on most maps I've seen.

Anyway, your points about early knowledge are good, as well as the initial tech trading. I had just assumed from the tone of the first post that the point was to get that extra settler, and what I've found is that you simply can't count on it.

- Gus

[Aeson]

Originally posted by Dominae
I have to agree with this (with all due respect to Aeson!). The two sample maps you posted reflect this: both are Huge, Pangea, No Barbs.

Sorry, I guess I wasn't too clear with my intent on this thread. The examples were in response to a question about when to build granaries, not in regards to Scouts or scouting.

Aeson, the tone of your original thread makes it sound like Expansionist civs are extremly good in any given game, which simply isn't true, IMO.

I did say that Scouts were the most useful non-pop units. I'd stand by that still, as any other function of a unit (non-pop still) can have their function replaced with little or no loss. There is no other unit until Explorers that can stay in other civ's territory peacefully, scouting or denying resources. Mobile attack units could be more useful, but their advantage over similar slow attack units is like a Scout's, dependant on map size.

[Dominae]

Sorry, I thought your thread was about Scouts and huts, not Scouting in general. Perhaps I should have read the thread's title before opening my mouth...


Dominae

[Aeson]

Originally posted by GusSmed
This is also a good point. In a typical start, I don't get anything for my starting tech. With the Scout start, typically I was able to trade for a couple of starting techs before the AI's locked me out. Of course, they still want deals weighted heavily in their favor, so often you can't get a deal unless you offer a 2 for 1 trade.

The way to counteract this is to get multiple contacts early. The more civs you have contact with (that have similar techs), the less those techs will cost to you, the same applies to the AI's. If you can make contact with 2 or 3 civs, and those AI's only have contact with you by that point, then the deals should be weighted in your favor. This can give you a leg up on determining who get's what tech when by knowing what everyone has, and keeping them from being able to trade amongst themselves.

It is possible to maintain the same tech rate (through trading and strategic tech paths) as a Deity AI on any settings, peacefully. It's hard to buy your way back in if you drop out early though.

Er, how? Are you talking about leaving scouts inside enemy territory, standing on resources? I thought the AIs would eventually demand you move or declare war.

It has changed. If you are right next to a city you usually have ~10 turns before they will kick you out. They still will let you stay for quite a while if you aren't right next to a city though, and it seems like staying unfortified (moving off and on the terrain) helps too.

I've never done anything like that, it's hard to visualize that working on most maps I've seen.

You need a bit of open, un-roaded space along an AI's border. If they have Horses they will almost certainly end up killing your scout eventually, but you can still hold out for long enough to make peace again (and depending on your world standing, get paid for it). The AI likes to send it's units to hit your 'threatening' units near or in it's territory. Often you can get some pillaging in too, if they only have 1 movement units on your tail. Explorers can do this VERY well in underdeveloped jungle areas.

A variation of this is to send your Scouts (or Explorers) through enemy territory before a war, cut off vital roads at the first turn of the war, and then draw the AI's military to the opposite side your main attack is coming from.

I prefer to have Scouts in AI territory most of the time, even without resorting to these dirty tactics though. I can leave my cities basically undefended, relying on seeing AI troop movement in their own territory to give away when they are coming to attack. Another dirty tactic is by using a few Scouts (or any quick moving troops) you can also delay an attack by just getting in the way of the AI's stacks. They won't declare war until they are able to get to your territory in most cases, and it will give you at least a couple more turns to prepare. With the right terrain or 3+ units you can delay the attack indefinitely.

In any case, here is an example of scout resource denial in 1.29f. I had to leave their territory 1 time in this span. You can usually get back into place before the AI's can get a worker onto the resource when they force you to move. For a nearby civ, keeping an AI without Iron for 10 turns even is usually enough to guarantee that they won't ever get it... Seems they didn't fix it all that well.