4th Apolyton Civ3 Tournament : 12-31/Jan/2002

[Eflin Soth]

MILITARY VICTORY in 1948....at the end

Military victory in 2048..... 2964 Points

See the game replay.... is very nice....the year 2047...

[Duncan Idaho]

Hahaha

When I watched your replay, just before I got the conquest victory msg, it said:

Someone has compiled a listing on the largest nations of the world:
1. Germans

Cute

[Sirian]

Great Map!

Hey Mark, I loved this scenerio. Different sort of challenges, quite interesting. Germans, though, with those panzers, well, I knew from the outset that I would roll to military supremacy, if victory of any sort was to be mine. Nothing, and I mean nothing, compares to panzers.

My stack of 2 elite archers, 2 veteran archers, vet warrior and vet spear managed to take Moscow in two turns... but only the spear was left, knocking off the last defender's final hit point, then I got two cities in the peace negotiation. If I had lost that fight, my game would have gone very differently. I had some bad luck, though, I thought. I had expected to win more easily. But then... that's why I try to bring decisive force to every battle, and tend to race ahead to steam power before I turn aggressive. It just doesn't pay as much to take a lot of chances where unnecessary.

I've read about the English dominating in other people's games. Not for me, it was America all the way, they got all the ancient wonders and had the tech lead for a long time, and were so strong I feared them getting a cultural victory or getting into high tech, so I went way out of my way to entangle them in wars with the others and beat them down first (landed 40 units at one time on the mountain north of Washington). I sacrificed quite a bit to snag SunTzu - first time I have ever built that one, last of the wonders for me to have finally built. (I'm big on barracks, you see, so I already have them by that time). It's not that that's the wonder I wanted, rather the only one I had any shot at all of getting, as it turned out, and after prebuilding Palace for simply millenia. Good grief. Then I got into the tech lead on vital tech as the Americans cleaned up all the optionals, Newton got me a golden age, with which I built my factories and researched 5 techs in 20 turns, and that was all she wrote.

When I razed London, halfway through the Final Campaign, my war weariness shot off the chart, so I voluntarily revolted and finished in Monarchy. (Communism blowz, I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole). Rushing to Computers and Miniaturization surely sped my final victory by a number of turns, as I could upgrade to and draft mech infantry, then increase panzer production rate in all those coastal-heavy cities . I used my spare leader, at the end, to rush the Manhatten Project. Who needs the UN when you're going to be the only nation left?

Conquest Victory in 1892, 2314 points. (I don't sit around clicking next turn ad nauseum to milk the score -- what's the point?)

Looking forward to the next game.


- Sirian

[Eflin Soth]

For next tournament

This scenario is very very difficult.....

The next scenario no one must win the game!

What do you think?

Level Emperor, map small, terrian 30%, isle....

[PFREMONT]

“give it to the Russians” trick

domination in 1850 AD – 3846pts
(just say yes to everything)

Here is a trick I figured out during this very interesting & challenging game.
As usual, I started building barracks and sending a couple of archers to annihilate the neighboring civ namely the Russians (2300 BC). They respawned north in the ice and we had a couple of fights but for some reason I decided to keep them. I thought they could always develop some techs, or I may sell communication to them whenever I would meet some other civ (BTW there might be some cheating there, because an AI civ always prices communication to another AI civ according to actual size and power, even though they ‘re supposed to know nothing about them...)
Or maybe I just kept the Russians for a company as I felt so “isolated”.
After many centuries of practicing the pleasures of manual jungle clearing in my homeland, which, under normal circumstances, I’m not eager to do, I finally managed to discover writing (800 BC) and map making (50 BC).
As I kept my first Great Leader at hand for that very purpose, I had the Great LightHouse on the following turn and started to explore the seven seas.
Conquering the Roman empire with a few swordsmen and horsemen was a piece of cake. It gave me one Great Leader and the opportunity to install Forbidden Palace in Rome (300 AD).
Now the real tough guys were the Persians. They had the Immortals, as expected plus a VERY STRONG cultural power they had the opportunity to build up while I was clearing the jungles. So during more than 300 years I tried to capture one of their big cities around the lake. I say I tried because the conquered city would flip back to “Persianism” no matter how many spearmen or pikemen I could station there or how many improvements I would rush in. The fightings gave a bunch of Great Leaders, though. And YES you may get 2 leaders in one single turn and even on the same assault in the same city.
But I was stuck with my Persian Wars pumping all my resources while on the other side of the Ocean, English and above all Americans were developing nicely.
Until I decided to offer one conquered city to the Russians. Then the magic Persian cultural power disappeared all of a sudden. That is when I conquered a Persian city the blue-green Persian cultural influence would still spread all around my little Prussian blue square. But once the city was offered to the Russians, the blue-green Persian influence would just stop where the brown Russian influence square started.
After I conquered and offered the 5 major Persian cities to the Russians, Persian empire declined.
After a few centuries I got chivalry and conquering back all those cities plus the remaining Persian empire by 1200 was a pure formality.
So whenever you’re fighting an enemy with a very strong culture better have a weak civ ready at the other end of the map and use it as a “cultural buffer”.

[PFREMONT]

Re: “give it to the Russians” trick

domination in 1850 AD – 3846pts
(just say yes to everything)

plus the ZIP

[Platypus]

Multiple leaders

PFREMONT,

When you got multiple leaders in one turn, did you actually have two leaders at the same time? Or did you get one leader, use it to rush something or build an army and then get the second leader?

the curious Platypus

[La Fayette]

Despotism challenge: domination in 1991

I decided to test my 'enlightened despot' strategy and therefore to stay in Despotism as long as possible.
The result is that I never switched to any other kind of government and won by domination (about 920 tiles, against 140 still owned by the Americans) in 1991.
I don't remember whether the despotism challenge was ever won in civ2. In civ3 (at least at Monarch level) it's done and I am proud of it because it was tough, especially thanks to the map provided by Mark (already described by other players).

This game has been almost allout war for me from the start: Russians first, almost as soon as I met them, then Persians (the longest war, from about 1200AD to 1700AD), then English (until about 1850). There remained the mighty American civ, with 17 cities average size 20 on their main island, plus 5 smaller cities on the 3 eastern islands.
I expected domination in the late 1800ies, after conquest of the eastern islands, but it took me one more century of bloody battles to conquer 10 of the giant cities on the main island, fighting most of the time with cavalry and ironclads against American tanks, bombers and battleships.

This is in fact the main problem with staying in despotism: money and research. I tried hard but never managed to be ahead in techs. In the end game I was in fact compelled to stop researching because corruption and maintenance cost more than my income. This was 2 techs away from the Panzer and the Golden Age: too bad!

Anyway, if I were to replay this (but I am NOT going to replay this), I would take even greater care of my science until I got Replaceable Parts, then stop research and fight like mad with artillery, instead of living with the faint hope of building panzers later on.

[La Fayette]

Sorry I forgot to mention my score (don't care much for score).
It was 2943 points IIRC.

[La Fayette]

PFremont
Very nice finding: 'cultural buffer'!
...and very nice result (I guess not many people will win this game long before 1850).

[Koro]

Total dominance in 1976. Score 2498

Hi, all!
It was long and hard war...

to PFremont:

my solution against hard alien ideology - quick whoul assault
of all alien cities in fiew turns.

[PFREMONT]

Re: Multiple leaders

Originally posted by Platypus
PFREMONT,

When you got multiple leaders in one turn, did you actually have two leaders at the same time? Or did you get one leader, use it to rush something or build an army and then get the second leader?

the curious Platypus

Got them on the same turn.
I did not use any of them on the turn.
So I actually started the following turn with 2 GL.
First time ever, though

[Klem]

#@%$! Immortals

My game doesn’t qualify for the tournament because I misjudged the Persian immortals, did a reload and went back a few turns. After the reload, I ultimately got a diplomatic victory in 1902 with 2083 points. The zipped game from 1360 is what I should have done the first time and I thought it might be useful for some players to see a game midway. I’ll give a bit of history then describe the saved game.

We all know the starting position was awful (the polite term), and wasn’t worth founding a city. I assumed the ground would be better to the south and finally found a bonus area with luxuries and wheat. Everyone was way ahead and then I found mountains, jungles and Russians, a bad combination. To have a chance, the Russians had to go. Rather than build, my immediate objective was to clear out the Russians. A barracks and mostly archers took care of the Russians fairly quickly and I kept their cities if they weren’t destroyed by the battles. No settlers until I had a place to settle them.

With the Russians out of the way, I cleared land and built cities, to the extent the geography allowed. It was obvious I had to explore. Eventually, and after losing some galleys, I found Rome to the west. We Germans needed their land! Fortunately, there was a galley “alley” and moved troops over to take a few cities, then peace, then a few more, while the Persians nibbled on Rome from the other end. We had a foothold, including Rome and as a HUGE bonus, a Great Leader. The GL was saved for a while then used to build the Forbidden Palace in Rome. This was the first of four GLs, and most important because of the corruption reduction.

We built up the new land, and reached the point where the Persians were blocking our expansion. A large force of horse, swordsman and miscellaneous other units was built and we attacked Persian. We had underestimated the number, and the strength of the 4-2-1 immortals, which I had not run into before. The Persians repulsed our attack and went on the offense. I decided to reload and do what I should have done the first time. The best choice seemed to be Chivalry and the Knight with 4-3-2 and the wonderful ability to back off to recover to fight another day.

While researching, I built catapults and built two forts south of Rome in what looked to be a fairly good choke point for the coming battle. The location of the forts would allow me to cycle my units fort to fort, and into Rome for healing, if needed. The cycling worked well. Once I had what I considered to be a bare minimum offensive force, I started goading the Persians every time they were in my territory, typically with a galley. As usual, they promised to move out, but didn’t. After a few turns of this, they declared war on me (much better than the other way around for the German morale).

When the Persians declared war in 1360, I went for 4 cities, Cumae, Pisae, Gordium and Ergili and took them in one turn, at which point, I retreated most units to the forts. Sure enough the Persians went for my lightly defended cities, but had to pass by the forts. As they got in range, I took a shot with the catapults then hit them with the strongest units possible. By 1385, I had cleared all Persian units from my land and contacted the Persians for Peace. With none of their units on my land, they were willing to talk and I got Education and 7 gold per turn.

Should I have gone for more? Maybe, but I liked the defensive position and a protracted war was not to my advantage. I had more space, captured workers, and irrigation (no rivers in this game!) Also, I had significantly weakened the Persians. Plus, in 1385, I was able to contact an English galley just west of Berlin. Trade and peace looked more promising than a war with Persia, which was still strong, and better concentrated than my two islands. One other thought - - I always pillage forts after I’m done with them. I don’t want to waste units protecting them and if the enemy gets in, it’s really bad news.

If you load the save game, note the settlers in Rome and Veii. I’ll keep a captured city with a population of one, otherwise I raze because they revert too often. For a worthwhile Great Wonder, I might make an exception, but if I do, I stay at war and starve it down to one, or knock it down to one as it reverts and I retake it. In the latter condition, I’ll typically move my units out and let it revert just so I can retake it and reduce the population. As soon as peace was declared I built three new cities.

We took some more land from the Persians several centuries later, and then finished them off with panzers (a really great UU, but late in the game). The panzers started my golden age and made short work of the remaining Persians. Then I shipped some Panzers and cavalry off to the few remaining Greek cities, and took them out. At that point I built the United Nations with my fourth GL, made the Americans happy with an MP and ROP treaty. The next turn they voted with me, against the English, for a diplomatic victory.

Hopefully, this will help some of you who found the game even more challenging than I did. If anyone has additional thoughts or questions, write.

[baz_machine]

Tournament

This is my Tournament Game. Space Race Victory in 2010 with 1999 points. Not too bad.

Baz Machine

[Kalani]

Nice guys...

Not a victory, but what the hell. There's still a story, and I think survival on this map showed a fairly good game.... Actually, I'm surprised people pulled out victories.

All along I didn't think I had a chance of winning, just wanted to stick it out to see what would happen. Although, it might have been closer if I hadn't made a real novice mistake: the Americans built the Great Library about two or three turns ahead of me, because I completely forgot to mine all the grassland. Oops. Yes, I don't play every day.

This game actually looked like it might be entirely peaceful: I fought no wars until the last two hundred years. The Russians culturally assimilated two of my cities on the plain (was jungle) over the mountains near Moscow. The Chinese were screwed from the start, but lasted longer than the Romans, I think, who were eliminated by the Persians (Immortals 1, Legion 0). The Greeks were eventually taken out by America. England emerged #1, followed by America, then Persia, then Russia, with Germany plugging along in 5th. I was playing this game entirely peaceful, so I made no move to attack Russia...and I wasn't in a position to until cavalry came along. I paid off a few threats; they asked for less than 20 gold, so it seemed wise.

Eventually the English decided the Russians had to go. Then the Russians attacked me when I denied their demand for Saltpeter. Quickly retook the culturally assimilated cities, England beat me to the rest. I had settled the smallest continent, the northwestern island, and shortly thereafter the English decided small Germany ought to be puny. They mowed through the island in about three turns. I got a Panzer victory on our mainland, getting a golden age, then made peace and pumped out as many Panzers as I could with Persian rubber. When the English came for me again, I was ready. Made sure America was on my side to keep them largely occupied. (Oh–one of the wars started because we had mutual protection pacts with both America and England, and when they went to war I had to too.) With about 25 panzers we pushed the English off our home continent, and slowly captured the islands off Persia from them (these had been Russian cities).

Because Persia had built several spaceship components, I tried to plant a spy. After the second attempt, they declared war. So we shipped our Panzers over and razed about four of their cities, eventually. We'd built a couple of nuclear subs armed with warheads. A turn out from the end, we dropped one on Perseopolis, and one on now-English Bremen (they declared war on me when I nuked Persia). No reason, it was purely for the fireworks and for old scores. The next turn three English ICBMs hit Berlin, and two other cities. The autosave shows the resulting German Anarchy and massive polution.

(Side note: it would be nice for the nuclear animations if we got to see the missiles launching, not just incoming and detonating.)

So yeah, I went from pacificism to nuclear MAD. Such is Civ.

I think I netted about 1140 points for surviving. Very fun game.

By the way, not surprisingly, without much war, I had no great leaders the entire game. It seems that Civ rewards early conquest (duh). I guess I have to start thinking in terms of the times--I mean raiding and "tribal" wars would have been more the norm in pre-history and ancient times. Maybe China is an exception?