1st Apolyton CIV3 TOURNAMENT : 15-30/November/2001

[mikellos]

diplomatic victory

2966 points, 1520 AD (i don't have the autosave, because I finished this game a few days ago and the new games deleted it)

mikellos

[cgrecu]

About the save/reload thing.
My opinion is this should not be dissalowed because:

1.It is impossible to be sure that the tactis was used, just by looking at th saved game.
2.It is not a bug , it is something that comes with the game.
There are many other things that can get you an advantage , like trading cities to other civs.It costs you one settler to build a city in the middle of the deser and to give it away to another civ.You'll be amazed how much you'll get for that hopeless city.
3.I consider myself a fair person, but look at this situation :
I attack a city with 6 horsemen, only one spearman defending and I lose all units.
Well, I must say that I for one will have a hard time not reloading in this case.

[Psyringe]

tournament rules, and fun

My two cents about which rules should be specified for the Apolyton tournament and why ... feedback is welcome.

What would constitute a "good" set of rules? I think good rules will have to fulfill the following requirements:

a) The rules should encourage a fair contest of skill. Many people participate in the tournament because they like the competition, they want to know how good they can play, compared to others. Losing to someone who applied better skill is, for most people, still fun, and even something from which they might learn to improve their own strategies. Losing to someone who did, in their opinion, something "unfair" however is not fun for these people. They prefer a clear definition of allowed techniques.

b) The rules should impose a minimum of additional "work" to the participants. Many people like to play the game, and like the idea of a tournament, but they want to concentrate on the *game* itself. If they have to meet a whole list of requirements in order to participate, like saving every turn or protocolling their moves, they'll rather play their own games - which would be a loss for the tournament.

So I think there are two groups of people: The "competitors" and the "just-for-fun players". (In reality of course it isn't that black and white, but the attitudes do exist). Both groups have to be served by the same set of rules. Obviously, since their wishes are somewhat contradictory, there is no single right solution, and compromises are inevitable.


So, which rules could make a good compromise?

I argued that to the "competitors" it is important that the competition is about their *skill* at playing the game. Therefore, in my opinion, the following techniques should not be allowed:

a) exploiting bugs or cheat codes
b) reloading previous save games
c) restarting the game
d) using non-standard game rules or patches
e) any manipulation to the save game file

The game demands that you can manage your empire, that you can plan ahead, that you can deal with the unknown, that you can overcome unexpected setbacks. This challenge is, to many people, part of the fun that they have during playing. The techniques mentioned above eliminate or reduce these demands, which makes the task easier, but also more boring.

Also, and perhaps more important: these techniques are so powerful, that the players who don't use them will hardly have a chance against those who do. This means: Allowing any of these techniques will "force" the "serious competitors" to use them, unless they want to handicap themselves. However, a "competitive" tournament player, who likes the challenge of playing Civ, will *not* have fun when he feels forced to use a technique that bypasses essential elements of the game.

While disallowing these techniques will be a good thing for the "competitors", will this discourage the "just-for-fun players"? I don't think so. Obeying these rules doesn't impose any additional work on them, they can concentrate fully on the game. Some of them may be frustrated that they are not permitted to reload a game when something disastrous happened. But they may agree to what I said above. Do they?

Sidenote to cgrecu: You argued:
> 1.It is impossible to be sure that the tactis was
> used, just by looking at th saved game.

While this is certainly true, but wouldn't this mean to allow anything that cannot be checked in the savegame? If you apply the same reasoning to the million-dollar-bug - you'd have to allow it too, because it can't be checked for, right? I guess we obviously have to disallow techniques that cannot be checked for ... there's no sensible way around it, we'll just have to trust each other.

cu
Michael

Hmm, writing (and probably also reading) this message was definitly *not* fun. Let's get over with this topic quickly, so that we can concentrate on the game again.

[Tilemacho]

MarkG.....could we have a few more hours please or should I just press "enter" 100 times to get my final score........

[Psyringe]

Deadline

Tilemacho: Well, since the tournament rules never specified a timezone, you could claim that the tournament must be open until Nov 30th is over in Tonga.

But honestly, I don't think someone will attack you for being a little late.

[Ahlyis]

Originally posted by jimmytrick
Playing more than once and or reloading and then submitting a game in a tourney or comparative game set is blatant cheating. I can't imagine a worst form of cheating. This is my problem with you and why I insulted you.

Had that been specified in the rules, I would agree. And don't tell me it should be obvious. Read the whole thread, there are several posts from players who indicate that they had no idea there was a problem with save/reload until they read this thread. If it isn't in the rules, don't assume that everyone will just 'know' better. Exploiting the gold bug SHOULD be an obvious no-no, but there are some out there who feel that anything not forbidden in the rules is fair game. I'm not one of those people, so don't start flaming me again. I'm simply saying that there are people who want everything forbidden to be at least implied in the rules.

Save/reload is not touched upon at all in the rules.

One cannot learn to play the game better by hearing stories about how others cheat.

Yes, if people were hacking the save files or exploiting the gold bug, then there would be little use in reading their stories. But that is not the case here.

Without multiple plays and people reloading we may not have discovered just how lopsided the scoring system favors early conquest/domination. I think many of us have learned quite a lot about how to win competitions based on score. Even if save/reload is disallowed for future tournaments, we have still learned from this one that conquest/domination is the winning strategy for tournaments based on your score.

Without people playing multiple times, we may not have discovered this for quite some time.

Learning from another's strategy is not cheating. Much of what is being posted here is not strategy. Letting people know that you can get a settler from a particular hut on a particular turn is not strategy.

When I referred to "people telling how", I was thinking about strategy. For example, if someone said that they used ICS to get a particular result, I might try an ICS game to see if I could get a similar result.

Ok, I have two problems with this.

1) MANY of us have posted our strategies. In fact, it has become obvious that the winning strategy is domination/conquest for this map. Only a few posts talked about how to get a Settler from the first hut, yet you lump this entire thread into that category. Absurd!

2) You keep accusing me (and everyone else) of cheating, then you post things like that above where you ADMIT to gaining knowledge about the contest prior to playing. Are you a hypocrite? Or do you consider save/reload cheating, but not gaining prior knowledge of the contest? I doubt seriously that you will find many supporters for that position!

Are you stupid enough to think that I was reading the threads to see where the civs/factions are located or to get map specifics and then using that in a game that I would then submit? I think I am getting insulted here.

YOU are complaining about being insulted? Over that? That's rich! After you posted a whole 'poem' that did nothing but call me a troll and flame/insult me in various ways, you are worrying about some possible insults that may or may not have even been intended?

Oh, and NO! I do not accept your general apology with the backhanded stab at the end of it that you posted. I think you owe me quite a bit more than that!

To clear up the next point, I have no problem with people posting about their contrived, choreographed, manufactured exercises AS LONG AS THEY DO NOT SUBMIT their production for consideration in the tourney. At that point it becomes cheating and morally bankrupt. I call for all who have done so to publicly withdraw from the tournament.

This is NOT your tournament and you have NO right to call for anything. If MarkG wishes to disallow various submissions, then that is his right. But YOU do not get to decide what is or isn't accepted.

Furthermore, since save/reload is not against the rules for this contest, why should ANY of these submitted games be disallowed?

Maybe Dan can then put their work in a separate category called "These are the results you can get if you cheat".

This just sounds like sour grapes to me.

Finally, in regard to multiplayer, I play PBEM and my thoughts were directed to that. In PBEM reloading is the prime method of cheating. Anyone who would reload in this tourney would surely reload in PBEM competition.

Absurd. There was no stipulation against save/reload for this tournament and nobody has tried to hide whether or not they used save/reload to achieve their results. How you go from a bunch of players openly discussing how they achieved their scores to all of those players being underhanded cheaters who would use save/reload and hide it in a PBEM game is beyond me.

And would not be welcome in my games.

To be honest, I wouldn't want to play with you anyway. It wouldn't be any fun when I would have to worry after every email whether you were going to accuse me of something. I'll play with someone who can enjoy the game, win or lose, and not have to resort to insults when he doesn't like the outcome.

When you are willing to admit that reloading is plainly cheating I will be glad to apologize for pointing out your confusion.

I will gladly admit that save/reload in a PBEM game is plainly cheating IF, and only if, it was specified SOMEWHERE. Whether it be in the initial emails setting up the games or on the site where the game was initiated from or somewhere else that it should be known to both players.

I also think it SHOULD be a standard rule for PBEM games, but I don't play PBEM games, so I don't know what is or is not standard rules. I would certainly ASK what is or isn't allowed before I started a PBEM game with someone, just so that I would know. I don't tend to ASSUME things about my opponents unless I have played with them before.

I am NOT confused afaik. What confusion is it you intend to point out to me? Do you intend to include your own apology at any point? And no, I don't mean that sloppy half apology you posted. I expect a full apology directed to me specifically. I really think you owe it to me.

[Ahlyis]

My thoughts on save/reload for future tournaments.

I personally would like to see two submission categories.

The first category is for those games that were played on the map for the first time and without having read any threads or other posts about the contest except the rules. Save/reload should be disallowed for these submissions. This will allow everyone to pit their raw skill againts each other on an even footing.

The second category is for subsequent games or those using save/reload from the start. This allows everyone to search for the 'best' strategy for the map and contest victory conditions.

I want to see how well I can do when everyone plays for the first time on a map. But I would also like to see what CAN be done on the map after my first game. This also will help keep people from getting bored because they finished their game the first week, and are sitting bored for the next three weeks until the next tournament. Ok, some of us have lives and can find other things to do for 3 weeks, but I think you get the point.

[MarkG]

humble request: if you suggest a rule, please also describe the way to enforce it...

[vincepai]

I wonder who the 11 winners will be..(based on victory type and year right?)

Although I don't think anyone submitted a histographic victory....

[Psyringe]

Originally posted by MarkG
humble request: if you suggest a rule, please also describe the way to enforce it...

Hmmm, do you really think it's necessary to actively enforce our rules?

Personally, I'll be happy with any of the rules that have been discussed here. Some of them will make the tournament more fun for me than others, but anyhow I will have fun, so I have no reason to insist on anything. I'll be happy to obey any rules you choose. (Now doesn't that sound good? )

As I said before, it is not possible to effectively make sure that no one breaks the rules. Okay, [Btheoretically[/B] we could have the participants send in one savegame for every action they perform in the game, have them protocol their actions, and have them send in an uncut videotape that shows that they don't reload, but this would a) severly decrease the number of participants, probably right down to zero, and b) still wouldn't prevent cheating by restarting the game.

In my opinion, the best way to run a tournament like this is to specify some clear-cut rules, which encourage a contest of skill and which don't impose an unreasonable workload on casual players, and just trust each other that they obey them.

I, for my part, don't have any problem in doing that. And if even if there *were* some people who bend or break the rules, I'll still believe that the majority of participants doesn't, and I'll still have fun with the tournament.

[Pard]

Space Race win. Score - 1471.

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by MarkG
humble request: if you suggest a rule, please also describe the way to enforce it...

Markos, we could give a honour system a try. 'Only enforceable rules' would mean no rules at all.

Imagine having to depend exclusively on enforceable rules in real life. Do you expect all your neighbours to be psychotic mass murderers just because you can´t be totally sure they aren´t?

[Psyringe]

Re: My thoughts on save/reload for future tournaments.

Originally posted by Ahlyis
I personally would like to see two submission categories.

The first category is for those games that were played on the map for the first time and without having read any threads or other posts about the contest except the rules. Save/reload should be disallowed for these submissions. This will allow everyone to pit their raw skill againts each other on an even footing.

The second category is for subsequent games or those using save/reload from the start. This allows everyone to search for the 'best' strategy for the map and contest victory conditions.

That's an interesting idea ... this way anyone could choose the competition he/she wants. Imho the downside of your suggestion is that it may lead to an inflation of winners ... we already have six victory conditions, we will have two winners per victory condition (best score / fastest finish), now if we implement yet another category, we'll have 22 competitions per tournament ... I don't know, for me it sounds like too many. But I may be be wrong.

Another factor to be taken in consideration is whether the organizers of the competition really want to manage 22 tables per tournament.


What do you think of the following alternatives:

a) saving/reloading and restarting is not allowed. However, people are free to submit "out-of-competition"-entries of games in which they used these techniques to find out what's "doable" with the given map. (Downside: Those people who habitually save/reload couldn't participate in the competition.)

b) saving/reloading and restarting is allowed. However, everyone is free to proclaim himself a "non-reloader/restarter". This can be seen as a handicap, a special challenge, much like the "one city contest". In the scoring tables, the "non-reloader/restarters" bear a mark, so that you can easily see who was the best of them.

c) seeing that there are mixed feelings about this matter, we could also alternate the rules between different tournaments, to test their effect. For example, the next tournament could specifically disallow reloading/restarting, while the next one after that specifically allows it. By comparing our experiences, we may find out whether one set of rules means more fun than the other.

What do you think?

[MarkG]

Comrade, we are already using an honour system

everyone, please move your comments about the rules here

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?threadid=36396

use this thread only to post your saved game
i'll probably be able to post the results by sunday, so i'll accept any late games. but i wont wait for you!

[Dog of Justice]

I've mentioned in a previous post that "honor code" is the way to go, primarily because it's really the only possible way to go here. Thus, I wouldn't concern myself with perfect enforceability, instead just focusing on clearly stated rules that create a level playing environment interesting to as many players as possible, and that nobody will find themselves violating accidentally.