Spite and Malice....

[Arnelos]

Originally posted by GhengisFarb

What? You're gonna cut off people's heads and display them on a stick?

That's just gross, and in most nations illegal.

Unless your from Texas. It might be legal there.......

blah blah blah

May H_E have his eyes gouged out and then be employed as a jester.

blah blah blah

May Unorthodox simply be tortured until he screams for mercy - then just killed in obscurity. Fairly kind if you ask the average Spaniard in this game.

blah blah blah

May Panzer32 have each of his internal organs removed one-by-one with a spoon.

blah blah blah

May Aggie be enslaved for the purpose of building a monument to the glory of Spain, after which he will be publicly hanged for the enjoyment of the masses.

blah blah blah

May MZ have his tongue cut out and his innards served to some stray dogs for lunch.

blah blah blah

May donegeal be beheaded and his head mounted on a pike in the ruins of Imperial City as a reminder to future generations of what creating a team dedicated to stirring up wars eventually causes.

blah blah blah

May GhengisFarb be enslaved for the purpose of shoveling manuer under the careful management of slavemaster Panag for the rest of eternity.

blah blah blah

+1

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The extremely dim-wited should note that this post is intended to display the author's sheer boredom with this thread, as it no longer serves any purpose beyond reciting stupid equivalents of yo mama jokes and other forms of juvenile humor. This post is not actually intended to be offensive toward any names stated herein and any emotional damage caused is not the responsibility of the author. By reading this post, you waive all rights to blame the author of this post for any wrongs he may or may not have committed at any point on these forums, other forums, or at any point in his or your life, or even existence itself.

[UnOrthOdOx]

UnO,

We didn't choose our course of action because we though GoW isn't good enough to counterbalance ND (though the geography certainly gives ND an advantage w/regard to using captured Spanish land, unless GoW manages to get a leader for a FP rush down south, and even then it would be tough to defend). No, even if GoW & ND balanced out well, a 2-civ Bob means 2 civs larger & more powerful than GS. Add in Lego, which is also much larger than us, and we've got serious problems. Our decision was based on that - not on any imagined incompetance on GoW's part.

As for this thread... whatever. Bring it. The only personal grudge which saddens me is yours, UnO. But there doesn't appear to be much I can do about it.

Damnit, I had managed to avoid this forum for most of the day... only succumbing in the late afternoon. So close to staying out of it...

-Arrian

Arrian,

For that matter GS in general,

I know that it is my personal vendetta that is causing at least some of you pain.

While I am absolutely sure that your reasoning was only to improve your own nation, that is not what the perception is.

I must appologize for the search feature is not working at present, but here in public there have been several posts from GS members that GoW sought the help of GS to expand the borders of ND. They are typically stated in a nature to imply that either that ND called GoW's shots, or that GoW is just plain stupid.

I made no illusions that I was a bit hurt over the deal with the gifting of cities. Not for the fact, no. For the nature in which the deal I was very personally involved in with GS was cancelled. I am over that, and have learned that it was at least partly due to a fact that I was relatively inactive for a few days. Days where GS made up their mind. I still feel that GS missed out on hearing ALL of their options before committing to a course of action. I also feel that GS had no intention of any kind of compromise.

Now GS comes with the notion of an honorable war to restore RP to glory. I make no presumptions that this does not chaffe me as well. I don't care for those who roleplay righteous and holy, typically. I prefer evil characters in general, just who I am.

Do I want GS removed? No. Errr, rather, not yet. I want them removed eventually in order to win, yes. For now, I want them off of Bob and back at the negotiating table. If GS is willing to talk, and truly willing to compromise, I would even be willing to return as ambassador despite my RL time situation at present (spook alley) and continue where I had left off.

We are all civvers in the end, after all. GS may win a war with ND/GoW, sure. I doubt that would be for some time yet, though, and at what cost would it come? Conversly, ND/GoW could kick GS off the island, sure. I doubt THAT would happen for some time yet, though, and at what cost would that come, though?

Surely there is something somewhere that we civvers can agree to a mutual benefit.

---

As far as this thread and GS restoring RP. Sure, makes perfect sense for GS. Make a team start from scratch given a hollow, war torn land. Seems to be their MO for now.

edit:

I have nothing but respect for the INDIVIDUAL members of GS. It is out of this respect that I offer to return as ambassador if they wish. This will be an outstanding offer for if and/or when they wish to set up negotiations with GoW once again.

I believe that GS knows how much this is a sacrifice on my part, and to my other commitments in RL. Perhaps this will also instill in them that I truly have no hard feelings and am just playing as I normally would in a similar situation with anyone.

edit2: I can see where this attitude is confusing. Just know that I am very much a Gemini, so when it seems I have split personalities, it's because I largely do.

[Panzer32]

May Panzer32 have each of his internal organs removed one-by-one with a spoon.

I think what Vondrack is trying to say is that if GS had just said "we're doing what we're doing because we want to win" instead of veiling it with NAP talks and honor and whatnot, then we probably wouldn't be having most of these discussions right now.

I don't think this is entirely true as we would still be in a conflict. However, I think the discussions would be reduced in 'severity'

[Theseus]

My apologies to anyone who was mad about the make-up of GS... after nye got it started, I sorta went on a recruiting warpath.

Headhunting, as it were.

Oh, and by the way, did I mention I want to win?

No hard feelings here. Play on!

[Hot_Enamel]

Originally posted by ZargonX


I think what Vondrack is trying to say is that if GS had just said "we're doing what we're doing because we want to win" instead of veiling it with NAP talks and honor and whatnot, then we probably wouldn't be having most of these discussions right now.

Of course ... 100% agree.
Every team will do whatever they think is in their best interests.
I took Vel's recent posts mainly as roleplaying though... although he is completely wrong, I have enjoyed reading them.


The problem is that most GS members try to validate every action they take as the high moral ground.

When someone stands up, points the finger at them and explains the error in their ways, we get the repetitive rant of ... "oh you guys just want to get us"

[Hot_Enamel]

Originally posted by Arnelos


blah blah blah

May H_E have his eyes gouged out and then be employed as a jester.

Yay ... not only do I live, but I have gainful employment

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
I don't care for those who roleplay righteous and holy, typically. I prefer evil characters in general, just who I am.

Now that's an idea for the next game. Team EVIL.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by ZargonX
I think what Vondrack is trying to say is that if GS had just said "we're doing what we're doing because we want to win" instead of veiling it with NAP talks and honor and whatnot, then we probably wouldn't be having most of these discussions right now.

Yes.

That's what I wanted to say.

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

Originally posted by vondrack

Yes.

That's what I wanted to say.

I was unaware Legolanders required interpreters.

Must be the blocky speech............

[MrWhereItsAt]

[OOC]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
I don't care for those who roleplay righteous and holy, typically. I prefer evil characters in general, just who I am.

Hopefully my performane is OTT enough.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
While I am absolutely sure that your reasoning was only to improve your own nation...

To be completely honest, sir, you are wrong (to a greater or lesser extent). To be correct, you are not entirely on the right track.

There was more than one expression in our private forum that joining in a gang bang of a helpless civ did not attract us, as people and players.

Some of us realised how much was invested by many people, and some of us realised what would be the likely outcome in personal terms for that rape for the victims.

Some of us welcomed the possibilities of aiding Spain far more than we welcomed the possibilities of carving her up, even though the uncertain path that we walk now does little to assure us of final victory.

Now, to be entirely honest... were we not greeted with Xenophobia disguising a greed to win now by ND, and yes GoW, through total domination of Spain, with us to enjoy nary a scrap in return for our assistance in killing her... the voices of saying 'no, joining in the kill like that is not something I am content with' would most likely have been overwhelmed by a desire to win.

However, there are/were 7 teams. Only one can 'win' the game. All the rest may play. It is in the playing that all the rest of the vanquished 6 will win. The destination is not the goal. The journey is. Let us take care not to **** on the journeys of the rest of our fellow travellers.

That means that the level of trash has gone way too far. GS has felt it. Vox has felt it (I think). Now RP feels it. Do you wsh for your team to feel it when things do not go so well?

I am reminded of the Golden Rule, and how it lays out the basis of a civil society. And truely, this forum and this game could use a good dose of civility.

[notyoueither]

Oh, and vondrack, you are mistaken too. People do things for the strangest reasons. 'Final victory' in a 'game' on a forum where many of us have spent a great deal of time, is not the be all and end all of the experience.

[Shiber]

Let us not forget the wrongs that were done to Trip, when several members of GoW set out to prevent him from achieving the position of Minister of War for the Apolyton ISDG team following the Luxian war.
It can be argued that those people objected to Trip's appointment over professional reasons, but the apparent desire to stop Trip from gaining any formal status within the ISDG team, and utterances such as "We must not let Trip touch ANYTHING!" left me with no doubt that this was another incident where animosity from the PTWDG was carried on elsewhere.

[Harovan]

Really? Amazing.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Oh, and vondrack, you are mistaken too. People do things for the strangest reasons. 'Final victory' in a 'game' on a forum where many of us have spent a great deal of time, is not the be all and end all of the experience.

Oh, definitely... I mean, yes, people do things for the strangest reasons. But if GS' theme was efficiency (as I have read earlier in this thread), then helping the RPers because of "feeling for them" would be kinda "betraying your theme", wouldn't it?

Bur seriously - I trust your words. Not only because you are nye , but because the same happened when Lego discussed whether to help the losing Voxes or not. There were "logical" reasons to do so - reasons driven by our desire to win. But then... there was also the feeling of "being able to help someone badly in need". And even if the majority of posts in our forum focused on the potential benefits, I suspect for many, the "helping" part was just as important - more important than one would judge from the ratio of "rational" to "emotional" posts. Since that's where one stops crunching numbers, forgets the "efficiency", and finally plays a game, EXPERIENCING A STORY (on a personal note: I know I did feel something warm inside seeing all those new Voxian settlements pop up on the inhospitable Legos Minor ).

Perhaps the problem is (and it applies more when the GS is the focus, particularly because of its "efficiency theme") that people are naturally reluctant to believe that the "inefficient, yet noble" reasons are the ones making you do this or that... if one states ONLY those, it sounds false. Ironically, if GS stated only the "cold logic" reasons, however incomplete such reasoning could be in reality, nobody would argue, I think. I believe that the best would be to state BOTH, as that's how things always really are, at least as far as I can tell...

Originally posted by notyoueither
Now, to be entirely honest... were we not greeted with Xenophobia disguising a greed to win now by ND, and yes GoW, through total domination of Spain, with us to enjoy nary a scrap in return for our assistance in killing her... the voices of saying 'no, joining in the kill like that is not something I am content with' would most likely have been overwhelmed by a desire to win.

for your honesty.

But... beware, you are doing pretty much the same mistake here I did by overstressing the "efficient, cold-blooded" reasons GS might have had to come to the RPers' aid. "Xenophobia disguising a greed to win now by ND, and yes GoW" is not really fair. We would have to start talking about the "greed" of RPers that played a major role here. We would have to find out if there is any agreement between ND and GoW regarding the post-war division of Bob between them... etc.

Even if we forget their "mercenary theme", GoW, just like you, would have their chances of winning the game close to zero if sticking to peaceful methods - just look at how their empire looks like on the map. So, joining a war promising to net them an improvement of their overall chances is hardly to be considered and labeled as "greed". It is a simple wish to win or stay in the race - the fact that the RPers are hardly to be viewed as an easy partner (this I have to admit even from the Lego point of view... I'd have to personally agree with those describing the RP diplomacy as "aggresive") as opposed to proclaimed ease which ND and GoW get along with each other, only made the decision easier.

The same goes for ND - teaming up with RPers was apparently not an option, so the only real choice was to ally with GoW... preventing being squeezed from North & South, assuring that the RPers, starting with the best and claiming most of Bob land, would not become the dominant Bob power.

"Xenophobia disguising a greed" is too strong of an expression, unless the natural desire to win is to be labelled as greed. Let's not fuel the flames anymore...

Everybody wants to win and hardly anybody wants to win at all costs. There are always reasons driven by the desire to win or do well (kinda "ingame") and there are always reasons driven by emotions (kinda "outgame"). I don't think we'll ever be able to supress any of them, as they are an inherent part of the game (and the "social interaction" mentioned by Velocyrix) as a whole.

So let's keep that in our minds all the time. When making (roleplaying) posts about how "holy" our war is and how "evil" our enemies are and how much they "deserve" to be humiliated - let's add some sort of a fineprint disclaimer saying something like Arrian said in his post: "Hey, guys, we are not stupid - we know we'd be toast if we let you carry your plan out... so we've come up with this "save the RPers theme" which is part true, part just a mockery to make us doing the inevitable look good. "

Originally posted by Shiber
Let us not forget the wrongs that were done to Trip, when several members of GoW set out to prevent him from achieving the position of Minister of War for the Apolyton ISDG team following the Luxian war.
It can be argued that those people objected to Trip's appointment over professional reasons, but the apparent desire to stop Trip from gaining any formal status within the ISDG team, and utterances such as "We must not let Trip touch ANYTHING!" left me with no doubt that this was another incident where animosity from the PTWDG was carried on elsewhere.

Ummm... are you sure it was GoW members? ONLY them? As far as I know that's not really true - there were others feeling strongly about letting someone they believed had done major diplomatic mistakes in PtWDG gain real power (read: become a Consul) in ISDG. And personally, I would agree that their concerns were at least partially justified - even if Trip later proved he had learnt his lesson from PtWDG and turned out to be a great asset to the ISDG team.