The Glory of Manifestos

[Shiber]

UnOrthOdOx,

We had to keep up GoW's doubts of whether we are committed to helping RP or whether we can be persuaded out of it. We couldn't have just walked up to you and said - No, we are going to help RP and we're going to war with GoW if we have to and there's little that you can offer. That would have kinda ruined the element of surprise, now wouldn't it?

So, the only way we could see to achieve this, to basically diplomatically outmaneuver GoW after it has outmaneuvered us, is by deceiving you. I honestly wish that there was another way.

Now, while your proposals may have been close to what we were hoping for at first (the 'DMZ' clause is what convinced me not to side with the proposal), they came much too late. First of all, they came after ND demonstrated their hardline approach of 'GS gets no foothold on Bob' (or something in the vicinity; I'm not sure, since I did not participate in the chat, only read the logs), and at that point we came to realize that after this difficulty there can be countless more difficulties, and in other words, even if ND agrees to allow us some foothold on Bob, we are far from welcome.
Second, when you came in with proposals that were not quite what we asked at first (and may I remind you that we came to the chat with our lowest offer), and said that you think you might be able to convince your team to side with it (but said no word about ND, IIRC), we were already delved in very interesting discussions with RP, discussions that we may have refused to have with RP had the joint GS-GoW-ND chat ended up different.

Finally, the point of you not receiving any replies since Toledo. It is but a screw-up on behalf of GS.
You sent several private-like PMs to several members of GS and asked a question. We were preparing to answer your question, and we took way too long in our discussions, and by the time we were ready to answer GF had already declared war in his PM and we thought it pointless to send our own PM to you. I'm sorry, however, if you were offended - certainly it was not our intention.

Anyway, this is all a game, so cheer up and don't take any of it personally. I've taken things personally in the past, and it has done me no good, believe me.

[Shiber]

Originally posted by GhengisFarb
You guys have Gum? Would you be willing to trade it for Wine?

Ethel, hand me over some wine to wash down this gum with.

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

Deleted.

[Panzer32]

For those who are talking about GoW not declaring war ingame, I must apologise. It was an oversight on my part, and has now been corrected. I apologise for any undue stress and/or wars this might have caused.

Panzer32

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

Deleted.

[UnOrthOdOx]

We had to keep up GoW's doubts of whether we are committed to helping RP or whether we can be persuaded out of it. We couldn't have just walked up to you and said - No, we are going to help RP and we're going to war with GoW if we have to and there's little that you can offer. That would have kinda ruined the element of surprise, now wouldn't it?

Not what I said at all.

You guys saw fit to respect ND enough to inform them you could no longer work with ND.

You never saw fit to respect either myself or my team enough to inform us that the deal I had been negotiating had failed (the one including ND).

That would not have needed include anything beyond that. No war on GoW. Hell, for all I care you could have asked if we would help you with ND and split Bob between the two of us.

Instead I was met with silence and being ignored from the time I sent the proposition to the time well after Toledo was in your hands and was only ever given a no comment to the things you mention above.

'No Comment' was as much courtesy as I received.

Deceiving me was a part of the game, I understand that. Business is business. But respect is also a part of business. At least show the respect to communicate.

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
It was too much to ask that when it was obvious and you sent ND a message saying you had switched sides that you could not have also sent a message to me saying you couldn't work with ND then?

To the best of my knowledge, the closest thing to a "message" we sent to ND indicating our support for RP was when we started accepting cities from RP, and that was a "message" you could see as well. We considered it to our advantage to keep that "message" ambiguous rather than telegraph our plans beyond what was inherent in our accepting RP cities.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Originally posted by nbarclay


To the best of my knowledge, the closest thing to a "message" we sent to ND indicating our support for RP was when we started accepting cities from RP, and that was a "message" you could see as well. We considered it to our advantage to keep that "message" ambiguous rather than telegraph our plans beyond what was inherent in our accepting RP cities.

If you would like, I'll post it. Otherwise ask Shiber, he penned it.

[Arrian]

Actually, I think there was a screwup involved on our side... we were supposed to send notes to both ND and GoW, but somehow only ND's was sent. Then the game moved past the point where a note was relevent.

That is my understanding of it. I distinctly recall someone complaining that we really needed to send a note to GoW... and frankly I'm kinda annoyed it never happened.

-Arrian

[Arnelos]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx


Not what I said at all.

You guys saw fit to respect ND enough to inform them you could no longer work with ND.

You never saw fit to respect either myself or my team enough to inform us that the deal I had been negotiating had failed (the one including ND).

That would not have needed include anything beyond that. No war on GoW. Hell, for all I care you could have asked if we would help you with ND and split Bob between the two of us.

Instead I was met with silence and being ignored from the time I sent the proposition to the time well after Toledo was in your hands and was only ever given a no comment to the things you mention above.

'No Comment' was as much courtesy as I received.

Deceiving me was a part of the game, I understand that. Business is business. But respect is also a part of business. At least show the respect to communicate.

Unorthodox,

Neither Glory of War nor Neu Demogyptica ever saw fit to tell Roleplay Team that they could no longer work with us until your troops were on our doorstep.

As I recall, it was YOU who came to us with an offer of an offensive alliance against Neu Demogyptica the very TURN before Panzer32 posted a declaration of war against our team.

In terms of being upset at GS for the same behavior, it's the pot calling the kettle black.

You will recall that because of YOUR intiative to seek an alliance with us against ND, I spent time writing a lengthy treaty between GoW and RP Team and then had to debate with members of my team that hate GoW that we should do it if GoW is actually willing to sign such an agreement.

Then you guys attacked us.

I didn't complain about you wasting my entire evening on your behalf, so I don't see why you're upset at GS for wasting yours.

In my case, I just turned around and wrote an agreement with GS

[zeit]

I concur with Arrian's words regarding the slip-up on our behalf. As I was on a trip to Italy (which I have let UnO know about several days beforehand), I couldn't have replied myself, and some sort of reply was in order- if not a note of our actions, then merely a "No-thank you" sort of message, as a reply to UnO's last offer.

On that note, I would like to say that from my experience, the GS does make an effort to reply to messages from other teams as soon as possible, and usually manages to do so quite efficiently. I will not get into specifics, but I do think the GS have suffered more 'delays' and 'honest mistakes' from other teams than the other teams suffered from us, but I could be biased...

[UnOrthOdOx]

Arnelos,

And I answered that with a frank response.

Specifically in chat I asked for several things, most especially an insurance that we would be guaranteed half of the island.

The agreement you penned offered no such thing and only ensured that RP would keep what was south of (some city or another) while GoW would keep North of some other city or another. A FAR imbalanced devision of land and resources.

It was rejected. Plain and simple, in writting. I answered as much to Togas about what was needed for it to be reconsidered.

As I have said, deception is understandable, and a part of the game, but at least I was respectfull enough to openly communicate with you guys during that time, not leave you hanging or ignore you.

[Arrian]

As I recall, it was YOU who came to us with an offer of an offensive alliance against Neu Demogyptica the very TURN before Panzer32 posted a declaration of war against our team.

That is interesting. So what are you complaining about, UnO?

I apologize for our lack of response to your PM (in which you explained you were no longer our ambassador, but wanted to know about Inchon "man to man"), we just took too damn long deciding what to say, and when we were about done, Ghengis sent a note that kinda made yours obselete... which we then responded to. Sorry about that.

-Arrian

[Shiber]

Originally posted by Arrian
Actually, I think there was a screwup involved on our side... we were supposed to send notes to both ND and GoW, but somehow only ND's was sent. Then the game moved past the point where a note was relevent.

I can confirm that.
I did not expect Nathan to send the save along while discussions were still ongoing on the wording of the messages to ND and GoW. I was caught by surprise, but luckily I was already done writing my PM to ND and received some approval for it, so I could send it. Then Poly went down.
I do not know why a message to GoW wasn't composed in time. I was too busy tending to my own ambassadorial duties to notice the diplomatic screw-up that was taking form and to stop it in time.

It was nothing malicious UnOrthOdOx, I can assure you that.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Originally posted by Arrian
That is interesting. So what are you complaining about, UnO?

Crosspost.

Read my earlier response to Arnelos.