Vox Public Announcement - Peace in Our Times?

[Shiber]

Originally posted by ruby_maser
Shiber, I've always liked that GS logo in your avatar It shows team spirit but not lacking in a sense of humor.

I was thinking I should start considering putting "AI" on my forehead in my avatar, but maybe I could give myself a little more credit

Thanks

[Shiber]

Vondrack, you should know that Vox is already preparing for a journey of exodus for several turns now. This is why I'm surprised that our offer, to basically help them carry out their own plan by agreeing to a long term of cease fire and offering our help wherever we can, is met with such harsh words from Beta (despite the fact that diplomatically, Vox has not conveyed any disapproval of this proposal to us).
Beta is trying to present us as cruel for demanding that Vox would evacuate the continent as a prerequisite for peace, but really his team is preparing for the same event for some time now. As for why we make this demand, I think that Nathan has made it crystal clear. Whether our paranoia is justified or not, what's certain is that Vox has knowingly and deliberately triggered that paranoia.

As for Vox's gestures, Nathan has clearly demonstrated why the first so-called gesture that Beta mentioned could not really be considered as a gesture. I'd like to note that their second so-called gesture is also just rational troop movements - they did not attack our beachhead the previous turn, because they were waiting for reinforcements so that they could attack with twice the strength.
Anyway, we might have appreciated these alleged gestures... had we been informed that Vox Controli thinks of these maneuvers as gestures. However, we were told by Jon that Vox has made several in-game mistakes regarding troop movements in their last few turns - perhaps Beta tried to make these mistakes look like gestures and use them in his slander campaign.

Anyway, it is clear to me that Beta's latest attempt to sling mud at GS has much in common with his previous attempts (including his claims that we were violating a tech agreement and blocking Vox's roads, which were obviously false, as Beta has later admitted).

[vondrack]

Disclaimer: this post does not express any official stance of Legoland, though it may be close to it. I am speaking for myself here.

Originally posted by nbarclay
Vondrack, would surviving with only a single city on our continent be worth the bother for Vox even if we would consider allowing them to do so? The way I've been looking at it, unless we would be willing to leave Vox enough on our continent to be worth their while, they are a lot better off evacuating and finding somewhere else to set up shop.

I read this as "yes" to my question.

Do not get me wrong. If I was GS, I would most probably think along the same lines, or at least consider the same approach. Just that I would be ready to accept others will frown upon my decision to more or less kill another civ. Heck, even the dumb AI does not like you when you do it to another AI. Or, if we are to consider your wish to have Voxes gone from Estonia rather than dead, I'd be far from expecting others to be thrilled about the idea of having to handle a problem that used to be yours (having you grow stronger on their expense).

I am not saying what you want to do is unreasonable, bad, immoral, whatever... I just say that you can hardly be "surprised" if other teams do not feel like applauding your plan. "We were looking for ways to expand on Estonia anyways, so this war is basically welcome..." - I believe I am quoting this correctly. GS is determined to expand, GS shows its teeth now - no compromises, no generosity towards an exhausted enemy. No potential security risks, please. Instead of, say, asking for Elipolis (a key chokepoint city) and banning Voxes from having any navy - which would basically save you from having to invest heavily in defenses on the Voxian border, you simply say: we want them gone. Fine with me, you are certainly free to decide that way. You want to have your empire conveniently sealed. Fine. Does it cause others a problem? Not your business. OK, I respect that - but I am going to remember it... and next time something I may or may not do might cause a problem to GS... it may not be my business either.

Again - I'm NOT trying to imply that what you intend to do is wrong or immoral. Just pointing out that you are ready to trade your own convenience and security for the inconvenience and problems of others. Alright. But it is only natural that others may call for a peaceful solution, wishing to keep their security, convenience, arranged deals, overall balance of power etc. IMO, there is no perfect solution - whatever happens, someone will have a problem, at least to a certain degree.

And I do not believe there really is anyone to be blamed for that... looking at the map, I do not see how you and Voxes could avoid a conflict. Considering the starting locations of you and Vox, they did the only thing that gave them at least some chance to survive. A surprise attack aka backstabbing. Your own members stated it was smart. Despite catching you by surprise, Voxes seem to be losing the war - how much their own mistakes contributed, how much your superior tactics did, and what role pure luck played, I do not know. The fact is that they are publicly declaring they've lost - and all they seem to want is a piece of land to retire for the rest of the game. You say: no, we are going to finish you off (or at least drive you off Estonia). OK, fine, your choice. Just do not expect others to be thrilled about it.

Originally posted by nbarclay
if you're interested in keeping Vox alive.

Legoland is committed to keeping Vox Controli alive, yes. We will certainly consider doing more than just letting vondrack express his own personal ideas here.

But as pointed out above - you are getting rid of your "problem" and we seem to be bound to feel it soon.

[Arrian]

We were looking for ways to expand on Estonia anyways, so this war is basically welcome..." - I believe I am quoting this correctly.

Quoting whom, from where?

-Arrian

[Arrian]

Legoland is committed to keeping Vox Controli alive, yes.

Why?

-Arrian

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

LEGO GETS TOUGH?

Does it cause others a problem? Not your business. OK, I respect that - but I am going to remember it... and next time something I may or may not do might cause a problem to GS... it may not be my business either.

Maybe the builder are getting ready to build all over someone's you know what................

[Aeson]

I think I made a statement to that effect Arrian, thanking Vox for opening up new avenues of expansion for GS when the war first started. Of course it wasn't quite how Vondrack put it.

(on a side note, is there any team not looking for ways to continue expanding past their current borders?)

[Shiber]

Vondrack, I absolutely agree.
None of us expects any members of the other teams to be happy about this. Vox is, after all, a pain in our side, and their continued existence limits us and weakens us. The goal of the game is to win (and have fun in the process ), and that can be achieved primarily by strengthening yourself or weakening your contenders for the title.

Still, I get the feeling that your impression of GS is greater than what it really is. "We are determined to expand" (I don't know if this is a quote, or of whom, I'm just using this to make a point) - yes, but who isn't? And it is not like we have prime territory now.
(by alphabetical order) GoW has wonderful territory, with so much grassland and many rivers that run through it. Lego Land has two land masses all to itself since the beginning of the game, though alas it is plagued with jungles. ND controls several great city sites for production and wonder cities. RP has secured to itself more tiles than the entire continent of Vox and GS has to offer. GS may soon control its own landmass as well, but it is not a big one, and only one river runs through it. In fact, we may be interested in trading our world map soon enough, so that will give everyone a chance to see that I am right.

What puzzles me, though, is how come when GoW and ND were almost frantic about driving Lux off of Bob few have publicly expressed their discomfort with the idea, whereas when GS wants to remove Vox from its territory, a civ that has caused much more trouble than Lux ever did (according to my knowledge of their actions that have agitated ND and GoW), so many people raise an eyebrow and frown at our declarations (which are much less harsh than the ones that ND and GoW have released during the war with Lux, particularly the Tripula the Impaler folklore).
Maybe there's something that I'm missing. Maybe I'm not reading the political map correctly, or maybe GS has made some diplomatic mistakes in the past to make the other teams "wary" of it. If you have any idea, and can talk about it, please tell me - I am very curious.

[Shiber]

Originally posted by Arrian
Why?

-Arrian

It's not that we have a vendetta against Vox, we don't want to see them gone completely - just gone from this continent. But I do wonder, like Arrian, why in particular Lego Land is interested in keeping Vox alive.
Of course, I'll understand if you can't answer this publicly.

[Arrian]

I think I made a statement to that effect Arrian, thanking Vox for opening up new avenues of expansion for GS when the war first started. Of course it wasn't quite how Vondrack put it.

Oh, I remember that post now. It was a trash-talk post right after Vox attacked us. We were all trading stuff like that back and forth.

-Arrian

[nbarclay]

Vondrack, thanks for an honest and balanced post, although the idea that GS welcomed the war as a chance to expand without violating any agreements [edit: or engaging in aggression ourselves] was merely the sentiment of certain (relatively hawkish) members, not of the entire team. Personally, I would have been much happier had we been able to continue to focus most of our efforts on building.

I might also point out that ND and GoW pushed the Voxian problem back onto us by declaring war when Vox tried to expand onto the continent GoW calls Bob. So we're hardly the only civ guilty of pushing problems off onto others where Vox is concerned.

Nathan

[Arrian]

Ok, though it took a while, and much has been said already, here is the official GS response to Beta's post:

The Gathering Storm would like to respond to the allegations & accusations made by Beta in this thread.

- they get all of South Estonia, below Elipolis

We already control South Estonia for all intents and purposes. Vox's units in the area are fleeing back to the homeland.

Not a concession by Vox, but a reality already.

- we gift Dissidentville to them

Dissidentville is a shell of a town, pop rushed several times, and not in a position that GS would like to build in. We are now in control of the mountains to the south, and Dissidentville will fall regardless.

Not a concession by Vox, but an eventuality they hope to cash in on.

- we do a public mea culpa - we would readily admit to our aggression and duplicity in starting this war.

This was part of the deal. They say they are willing to admit their guilt, and apologize. Then without responding to our latest proposal, make a public diatribe targetting the honorability of GS.

Why would we believe they would keep their word this time? And furthermore, why does this really matter? If Vox apologizes publicly for starting the war, will any of the other teams actually care?

- we post a public non-agression pact with GS into the next era.

We had a border treaty with Vox which they discarded at their whim. There was a set method for renegotiating or withdrawing from the agreement, but it required several (10?) turns notice. Vox instead wanted suprise on their side and attacked, breaking the treaty outright.

Why should we feel they would hold to this treaty?

- we will provide engineering in approx 15 turns.

We are discussing trades with other teams at this point. Engineering in 15 turns is later than we can get it from other sources.

A real concession from Vox, but what guarantees does GS have that Vox would keep to their promise in this or any regard, given Vox's previous breaking of their treaties?

-we provide our free tech going into the next era.

Again, much like the previous argument. Although Nationalism is a very valuable tech, and GS wouldn't mind getting it for free. Would Vox keep to their word?

-we will not attack Inchon

No comment on this due to strategic and tactical reasons.

-we are allowed to safely evacuate all our troops from South Estonia

Vox's troops are running N. In our view it is because Inchon flanked the majority of their forces. They need their units N of Inchon to defend the bottleneck.

- this to include Harry and 4 other immortals trapped on the mountains in the SE. As a show of good will - they will move down to tha plains where they will be easy targets.

AFAIK, no statement of this type was ever made to GS. GS representatives made it quite clear to Vox that hostilities would continue until a peace deal was reached. Further, Vox's stack in the area was dead to rights, with catapults having gotten them down to 1 or 2 hps each (2 at 2 each, the rest at 1), and another round of firing reduced them all to redline. We were going to destroy that stack that turn anyway, regardless of the move off the mountain. Their supposed "good will" move also threatened several of our workers.

They have now landed troops in North Estonia.

Yes we have. As stated previously, hostilities will continue until such time as a formal peace treaty is finalized.

-and discuss the movement of Inchon - maybe two tiles south. They will still get the prime enhanced grassland tiles - but our cultural borders will not be overlapping.

This would represent a concession on GSs part.

-we also agreed to forfeit any access to iron, as a commitment to future non-aggression

We already control the Iron. Vox is giving us what we own? If it is an agreement not to trade for iron, well, again, trust is an issue.

Beta goes on to try to portray GS as "greedy" because we want them off the continent. I would simply remind the rest of the world that it was Vox that started this war, not GS. They dropped large stacks of immortals on us, seeking to conquer what they term as "South Estonia." We had to scramble to defend ourselves, and it was a very close-run thing, I assure you. Now that the tide has turned and we're winning, Vox wants us to have mercy on them?

I ask a simple question: why should we?

-Arrian, co-general of the armies of the Gathering Storm

[Shiber]

I know that to some individuals, the agreement that Beta has presented sounds generous and lucrative. But I assure you that as Arrian demonstrated above, it includes few actual concessions on Vox's side, and the really juicy parts are all based on trust, which no longer exists between Vox and GS.
What more, the revenues from Vox's proposal amount to about a quarter of the grand prize of a total victory over Vox by conquest, which now seems more imminent than ever. I honestly don't see how Vox could possibly expect us to give up everything that we've put into this war for 25% of the grand prize, especially not after they have conveyed their general consent to the exodus plan.

[Shiber]

Some visual aids

Here is a shot of Vox's stack of immortals that they moved, as part of an alleged gesture. Previously, the immortals were stationed on the mountain tile just barely visible southeast of their position in the screenshot.
Also note how their so-called display of good will threatens three of our undefended workers.
Vox removing a "threat" as a display of good will, or just trying to get us to let these units escape to heal and fight us another day? Or perhaps trying to get back home "through" our workers (since there is no other possible escape route), capturing them in the process?

[UnOrthOdOx]

I just have one comment on a personal level:

I sure miss the days of the trash talking and the good natured joking.

It almost seems as if neither team is having fun with this war any more, Vox due to losing, GS due to these forums, which is a shame, and perhaps the only REAL reason to discuss alternate peace proposals...

just my random ramblings and observations...