You call that an argument?

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by MarkG

But what about all those millions of gamers who have their game computer offline?

you are discussing in a forum for a game whose main feature is multiplayer....

LANs are not always connected to Internet, still you use them for multiplayer. And my arguments are not PtW specific, the discussion here just brought the issue to the surface.

And I'm sure many people buy PtW just to get the new tribes and units.

[Traelin]

Originally posted by yin26
[For the 'Told You So' files.]

Seasoned gamers, such as myself, decided to wait until the Gold Edition arrives. Don't get me wrong: I am thankful to all the people here who continue to pay to beta test PtW. It reminds me of uncooked cookie dough, really: Getting the cookie early tastes fantastic those first few bites ... until you realize the unfinished version is about to cause you to puke.

I'll wait 'til Civ3 is done cooking, thank you.

Yes, I am a far wiser (and richer) Yin ...

Damn it I like cookie dough better than the cookies!!

[Traelin]

Originally posted by Mahdimael


You're right in saying that it's impossible for code to be perfect from the get go. If you've ever worked in the software industry, though, you know that part of the design process is revision. You revise something until it works before you release it. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to happen these days for whatever reason.

Software is analagous to every product that's for sale in this way: A company or person creates a product that boasts certain features, and the person purchases that product due to those claims. The results are certainly more serious if your car doesn't have working brakes or whatever, but when a person buys a product, they expect (rightfully) that the features claimed will be there.



Rather than get in an argument over rocketry or heart surgery, I'll clarify my point to you: In situations where millions of dollars or lives are at stake, those involved ensure to the best of their ability that what they're trying to do will work. As stated before, software is much less important- however, does that give the company license to be more careless with it's product, and to release it without ensuring it works, especially with one of the fundamental features intact?



Loudest isn't the key- numerous is. If 100 or 1000 people complain that multiplayer in a game doesn't work, or that their car's clutch works improperly, then that should indicate a problem. When the things being complained about are key features of a product, that should indicate a serious problem.

You are so right. I'm not even a business major and I can ascertain the logic in your post. Free enterprise is about the consumer, the product, the vendor, and the relationships therein. Unfortunately the S/W industry is still in its infancy and has a lot of kinks to be worked out.

I'm not attempting to defend either side, because I think it reeks when an application is heinously buggy. But remember, the automobile industry has been around a heck of a lot longer than the S/W industry. And we've had a heck of a lot more venues in which to test the car than we have S/W as of 2002.

But you are absolutely valid in your assertion to compare S/W to any other product. Good God, in a way that's what OO programming does. It abstracts things to objects. Cars and applications are both "Products". These "Products" have certain features that they share in common. The comparison is completely valid. Yes, some applications (as are some other "Products") are mission critical. But they're all still "Products", created by the "Vendor", and consumed by the "Consumer".

I personally haven't bought PTW yet, because I want to play thru my current game first. It's not because of the issues ppl have raised on this site, because I find it hard to believe that any game could be as buggy as PoR 2.

[Traelin]

Originally posted by Zurai
Actually, rocketry is pretty damn easy.

Erm, that's a very generalized statement. If you talked to my friend at the JPL, he would beg to differ.

[WarpStorm]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
Imagine if Sony sold you a music CD where track 4 didn't play and then they announced they'd "patch" it later. You think they'd get away with that?

Well, how about the Celine Dion "CD"s (they legally can't be called CD because of what was done to them) that would lock up computers they are put in intentionally. What was done about them? Nothing, except a minor (very minor, who listens to her anyway?)consumer backlash. Nothing legal that I've heard of.

In the United States (I can't speak for other localities) accepting the EULA is your accepting of the legal terms of licensing. Infogrames didn't sell you anything. They granted you a license to run the game under the terms of the license. You even get to read it and get out of it. There is no legal case against them (in the USA or any country that acknowledges EULAs).


LICENSE AGREEMENT

*** IMPORTANT ***

This is a legal agreement between the end user ("You") and Infogrames Interactive, Inc., its parent, affiliates and subsidiaries (collectively "Infogrames Interactive"). This Agreement is part of a package (the "Package") that also includes, as applicable, executable files that you may download, a game cartridge or disc, or a CD-ROM (collectively referred to herein as the "Software") and certain written materials (the "Documentation"). Any patch, update, upgrade, modification or other enhancement provided by Infogrames Interactive with respect to the Software or the Documentation, or bonus game provided by Infogrames Interactive at no extra charge as part of the Package, shall be included within the meanings of those terms, for the purposes of this Agreement, except to the extent expressly provided below.

BY DOWNLOADING OR INSTALLING THE SOFTWARE, YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT YOU HAVE READ ALL OF THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF THIS AGREEMENT, UNDERSTAND THEM, AND AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THEM. YOU UNDERSTAND THAT, IF YOU PURCHASED THE PACKAGE FROM AN AUTHORIZED RESELLER OF INFOGRAMES INTERACTIVE, THAT RESELLER IS NOT INFOGRAMES INTERACTIVE'S AGENT AND IS NOT AUTHORIZED TO MAKE ANY REPRESENTATIONS, CONDITIONS OR WARRANTIES, STATUTORY OR OTHERWISE, ON INFOGRAMES INTERACTIVE'S BEHALF NOR TO VARY ANY OF THE TERMS OR CONDITIONS OF THIS AGREEMENT.

If You do not agree to the terms of this Agreement, do not download or install the Software and promptly return the entire Package to the place You obtained it for a full refund. If You should have any difficulty in obtaining such refund, please contact Infogrames Interactive Technical Support at 425-951-7108. Failure to return the entire Package within 30 days of the purchase date shall be presumed to constitute acceptance of the terms and conditions of this Agreement.

[Traelin]

Originally posted by Akka le Vil

I would like to point out something at our dear friend Zurai arguing how impossible it is to make a product that is not filled with bug right from the start : what about the vast majority of console games ?
What about the PC games that were developped before 1994 ?

You will find that the vast majority has very few bugs.

Console games are a completely different animal. They are developed to be highly platform-specific, and the SDKs that the developers use are provided by the console manufacturers. It's awfully hard to mess these up, although I have (albeit rarely) seen it happen.

[ChaotikVisions]

Very few bugs for games made before 1994? Not really, the amount of bugs determined if a game was succesful or not. The internet has improved gaming, not made it worse. Now games that have flaws or bugs have a chance to be fixed. Theres just more games coming out and more people playing so it seems like there is always a buggy release. And a text based game is going to naturally have quite a bit less bugs then a new 3d game. Mafia wasn't bugged, or none I noticed while playing and beating it. Battlefield 1942 has only 1 real bug i've found so far, and thats the one with falling. To the guy who said the internet play was messed up, are you on dialup?

Jedi Knight 2: Jedi Outcast had no bugs I noticed, besides for some exploits people used in mp. Hitman 2, didn't notice any bugs in that one either. Warcraft 3 seems to be free mostly of bugs, besides for some balancing issues i've never noticed a real bug while playing. Theres more I can name, just wanted to pick a few of the more popular and recent ones.

Civilization 3: Play the World has a few bugs reguarding multiplay, kept getting a synch error with one guy while playing. Though oddly it only started after we had got to 2700BC in a game, then in the other games it would do it too. Played another game with someone else and had very little lag. Haven't gone back to multiplayer since though. Not because of the bugs I found, i'm sure i'd be able to find a good game if I looked. But just because I didn't get PtW for multiplayer, I got it for the new civs, improvements, units, and increased features(stack movement and the like).

Which I might also say, i've found no bugs in as of yet. I don't think PtW is totally broken or even half broken. Few bugs to be worked out reguarding how gamespy works, and offering an alternative to gamespy via direct IP. Doesn't suprise me, gamespy has always been a horrible service and it was Infrogrames(suprise suprise) who choose to put PtW on it.

[15:50] Jeff: what's the makeup of the Development team look like? # of programmers, artists, etc.?
[15:50] Trip: 3 programmers, 7 artists, 1 sound engineer, 1 producer.

3 programmers to code the expansion. Add to the fact that they're being rushed and then made to have it work with gamespy, I think they did pretty well. Also alot of the bugs with gamespy are the amount of people logging on and trying to play, at least according to Firaxis. You'd have to ask the beta testers if it worked well before this. If you're not happy with it just take your game back or don't buy it.

My whole problem with all the whiners is that they make no damn sense. They come on here and tell us why there lifes are shattered by having bought or heard that a game is buggy. That Firaxis should be sued for releasing a buggy game like this. That they'll personally persue lawsuits because of this. Get over the damn thing and quit telling us, go e-mail Firaxis or protest outside there offices or something. Anything but spam us with what amounts to just one more persons opinion of a game he doesn't like.

The majority of the people in these forums are going to like Civ3. And get annoyed when people come on spamming it. Feel free to offer ways to improve the game, but "omg!1 mulziplayer si brokan totaly!" isn't offering suggestions. For those that just insist on flaming the game when they don't play it or don't want to play, get a new hobby. Try basket weaving, I hear its very soothing. Go back to whatever it is you did before PtW ruined your life, or something.

And yeah, I guess i'm probably going to get called a fanboy. But considering i'm on a site devoted to Civilization that would apply to most of us. Of course, theres some that here just to complain, so they don't dare allow themselves to be grouped that way. But one must wonder why they stick around.

[Grumbold]

If you hate complaint posts, the best thing to do is ignore them. I've never seen a thread get to three pages just by people saying "this sucks" "yes it does" "I agree" "me too". If someone wants to have their own personal rant at the game, just let them get it off their chest. Firing back objections is just throwing petrol on the fire. Ones like "make your own game if you don't like this one" is like throwing in dynamite and shows a distinct lack of reasoning.

Games that need patching because of hard to find mistakes only discovered after release is one thing. Games released with major problems that are known about or should have been found by straightforward testing is just unacceptable. If publishers could be held liable for rushing out code the developer has told them is faulty the games industry would have a lot less of those sort of fiascos.

[ThaddeusAlexander]

Originally posted by Akka le Vil
Oh, how God could not have I thought of it before !
Well, next time I'll buy a car, I don't want to wait it for being finished ! I'll go buy the engine and the wheels, then wait a bit for them to finish to build the seats and the bodywork, and once it's done I'll wait a little bit further to have the brakes and the windows...

THIS IS NOT A CAR!!! ITS A GAME!!! IT COSTS $50!!!

If this is your biggest worry in the world then I wish I had your life. I'm not a sheep that'll buy anything, I only have one game on my PC, and thats CIV3 and now the expansion because I like them.

You people are making such a big deal out of nothing...

Cheers
~Thadalex

[ThaddeusAlexander]

Originally posted by Akka le Vil
Ii prefer to wait a bit and have a Finished product I can feel the developpers could take the time to polish and to put the finishing touches on, rather than to have it six months earlier and have a rushed piece of crap.

A finished product that will be no better than what I'll have on my computer at that time.

Well, thanks for proving my point about people ready to swallow up anything and then sending the message "don't bother to polish and finish your games, anyway I'll just buy it".

Because I know they'll fix the problems...

They are giving us patchs ?! WOW !
They're so great !
I mean, it's so kind of them, they are actually deigning to finish the product ! How lucky we are ! That's so heroic !

Its not heroic ... boy you got something wedged somewhere in you don't you? ... its expected... just like you expect that in a while they'll have a "gold" or finished edition of the game.. once again, that will be NO BETTER THAN THIS VERSION at the time since, of course, this version will be patched up.

In my honest and sincere opinion, I think something is deeply troubling you and you should try to look deep within to find out what it is. Agression and anger don't solve anything my friend. Maybe you have anger towards something else in your life and you should sort that out first because evidently your anger is spilling out to other areas of your life.

HAHAHA



Cheers everyone...
~Thadalex

[MarkG]

in the technology backwards (compared to US and the most of Europe) Greece, the minister of edcuation announced today that 100% of highschools and 46% of elementary schools have internet access.
so please lets give the "not everyone has net access" argument a rest
dont force me to find the US-homes-with-net-access percentage...

[MarkG]

I've never seen a thread get to three pages just by people saying "this sucks" "yes it does" "I agree" "me too".

only because they are closed early enough

If someone wants to have their own personal rant at the game, just let them get it off their chest.

sorry, this isnt the right place to vent. that would be your open window...

[Grumbold]

Aha! The secret to successful ranting : get the moderator counter-posting you instead of locking you down

In the UK net access is still low, but that's a lot to do with the poor quality of our infrastructure. Give it another five years and that may have changed, especially if the price continues to fall.

[MarkG]

come on, you even have DSL in the UK! here, we're just dreaming it

[Zurai]

Originally posted by Akka le Vil

I would like to point out something at our dear friend Zurai arguing how impossible it is to make a product that is not filled with bug right from the start : what about the vast majority of console games ?
What about the PC games that were developped before 1994 ?

You will find that the vast majority has very few bugs.

The truth is extremely simple : as long as people are stupid enough to accept to buy unfinished and buggy product, companies WILL sell unfinished and buggy products.

Guess why? There aren't 10,000 possible hardware configurations you have to code for on consoles or ancient computers. Even with that, I've never played a game, ever, that didn't have bugs. Even Nethack has bugs.

The truth is a lot more complex than you seem capable of realizing. It is impossible to type 15 million words and not have any typos or grammatical errors. Suggesting that just because people are willing to accept less than perfect because perfect is impossible is the *reason* that perfect is impossible is just high stupidity.