You call that an argument?

[Staszek]

MarkG, you're absolutely right.

So, as I cannot purchase this rare product in Europe right now, let me just thank you all people in US for voluntarily testing every new game so when it finally ships to Europe there is a decent patch available.

Firaxis, what about a label: TESTED ON AMERICANS?

[Alexander's Horse]

Oh yes I do

Would you like to see my letter of complaint?

[gsmoove23]

It is fun to listen to the product testers, after the betas that is. Seriously, this is a problem with all software development and I'm amazed that people are always so suprised. Firaxis isn't in it for your enjoyment folks, thats just a byproduct of successful marketing schemes They aren't bloodthirsty corporate nazis or cute and cuddly bespectacled idealistic programmers either.

Partly to stay within a healthy profit margin and partly because software programs are incredibly complex deals that CAN be altered by patches after release, software companies view the after release phase as a major stage of development so wait for the patch that will hopefully fix things and send a letter to your better business bureau/Australian Consumer and Competition Commission while posting raging flames on any forum you can. When the flames calm down I may buy my copy

Hows that for even-handed

[Chemical Ollie]

I think the "defect product needing patching" is not a big issue for anyone who finds his way to Apolyton or CF. Most of us could download the patch and get the game working if we have Internet access on our gaming computer. At least if we have a fast connection that can deal with 7-8 MB file downloads.

But what about all those millions of gamers who have their game computer offline? And even if they have Internet access, it is arrogant of the software publishers to expect that all consumers should find their way to the right site for the upgrade patch.

I am sure that a lot of people just buy the game, install it, find out that it's too buggy to play, dismiss it as a crappy game and put the CD away in the drawer forever. Only the most fanatic will bother to look for a patch. (That goes for a lot of other software too).

In my opinion we should really resist the arrogant software publishers by complaining in forums like this. I am sure some of them read this.

[gsmoove23]

Good point Olaf, I never think about it but a couple of years ago I would never have bothered with the internet patch or even contacting the company, just returned the game if I could. If you're not immersed in the software world there is this idea that you buy a product and it should work properly at the time of purchase, imagine. We are the defenders of those without a voice

[MarkG]

But what about all those millions of gamers who have their game computer offline?

you are discussing in a forum for a game whose main feature is multiplayer....

[Sarxis]

I don't have a problem with repetitive praise or complaints about PTW; its kinda a form of democratic vocalization really.

And if I were someone who was considering buying PTW, and came here, I would want to see what everyone had to say, not just a few people's opinions.

Isn't that what fansites are about? Talking about games? The good, the bad, and the crashy.

[Akka]

Civ3 IS strong code. And about your authors comment: I suggest you pick up any popular novel and actually go through, counting spelling and grammar mistakes. You'll find a LOT more than you expect. I once counted 23 spelling errors and quite a few odd grammatical structures in a ~400 page book. That's between 50,000 and 100,000 words. If you mutliply the 23:100,000 ratio to 15 million words (theoretical number for Civ3), you get about 3500 bugs. In reality, it's not reasonable to use a linear scale.

I would like to point out something at our dear friend Zurai arguing how impossible it is to make a product that is not filled with bug right from the start : what about the vast majority of console games ?
What about the PC games that were developped before 1994 ?

You will find that the vast majority has very few bugs.

The truth is extremely simple : as long as people are stupid enough to accept to buy unfinished and buggy product, companies WILL sell unfinished and buggy products.

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by gsmoove23
Firaxis isn't in it for your enjoyment folks, thats just a byproduct of successful marketing schemes

If a company markets a product advertising features that it doesn't have or that don't work that is called misrepresentation and deceptive and misleading conduct. In Australia that is illegal - a very serious offence with million dollar fines.

Oh wouldn't it be great if one of these cowboy gaming companies finally got a big fine slapped on them - they might finally stop treating their consumers like fools and properly beta test products. Its the only way they'll learn.

And the only reason they've been able to get away with it so long is the kids who buy their games don't know their rights.

Imagine if Sony sold you a music CD where track 4 didn't play and then they announced they'd "patch" it later. You think they'd get away with that?

Stop being treated like chumps - flex your muscles as consumers - complain to your local corporate regulators and consumer watch dogs if you are unhappy with this product.

[Akka]

Originally posted by MarkG

But what about all those millions of gamers who have their game computer offline?

you are discussing in a forum for a game whose main feature is multiplayer....

Perhaps I'm mistaken, Mark, but I though that the main point of PTW was to ADD multiplayer to a game that HAD NOT IT.

So, except if you consider that Civ3 did not need any patching right from the start, the argument of Olaf is still perfectly viable.

I would even go as far as accusing you of some fanboyism on this very message, as excusing unfinished products just because you can download patches seems somehow on the limit for me

[ThaddeusAlexander]

Originally posted by Akka le Vil
what about the vast majority of console games ?

I've had my fair share of bugged console games and crashes... i don't know which ones you buy but ...
regardless console games are designed for one type of console. if there was one type of PC out there i'm sure it would be a bit easier to make a perfect game but there are countless combos of OSs and components out there...

The truth is extremely simple : as long as people are stupid enough to accept to buy unfinished and buggy product, companies WILL sell unfinished and buggy products.

But see, the patches are out there... I don't understand why you won't buy the unpatched version and have the extra fun for a while, and then when the patches come out you simply download them? Is that not the same as buying the product when it comes with all the patches fully installed ANYWAY??? The difference? You get the game early this way and you'll get that final patch long before the "Gold" of whatever version comes out.

IF you're gonna buy it anyway, then I don't understand why you shouldn't buy it NOW and just patch it up. I don't mind at all that Firaxis brings it out early even if I have to patch it, because I've been waiting too long to play against my friends in Civ3 and use some new units, not to mention the wonderful scenario editor.

If I had to wait a year for the perfect version then I think I'd go NUTZ!

I think we should look at the sunny side of all of this ... AT LEAST THEY ARE giving us patches.. if they were really as bad as some people make them out to be, then they'd throw us the box like the pack of wolves we are and say "Screw you all" and that would be tne end of it .... I read someone above saying how if you get good food you have the right to complain. but once you eat that food its done ... once you buy Civ3 PTW its not over so quickly ... they are fixing problems and thats what matters; what they ARE doing

I bought it and I love it and i've never had a crash and multiplayer with my friends is great.


Okay thats all for me ...

Cheers
~Thadalex

[MarkG]

Originally posted by Akka le Vil
Perhaps I'm mistaken, Mark, but I though that the main point of PTW was to ADD multiplayer to a game that HAD NOT IT.

So, except if you consider that Civ3 did not need any patching right from the start, the argument of Olaf is still perfectly viable.

I would even go as far as accusing you of some fanboyism on this very message, as excusing unfinished products just because you can download patches seems somehow on the limit for me

perhaps you should consider my post a bit more before callying me a fanboy

when i say that the game's main feature is multiplayer, i mean that it's core target are people who DO have internet access(in the most usual cases, you need internet for multiplayer games)

so requesting from people who internet access and spend many hours online to download patch is not somthing big....

[Akka]

I've had my fair share of bugged console games and crashes... i don't know which ones you buy but ...
regardless console games are designed for one type of console. if there was one type of PC out there i'm sure it would be a bit easier to make a perfect game but there are countless combos of OSs and components out there...

That's precisely to avoid this pityful excuse that I talked also about the PC games prior to 1994.
There was even MORE diversity in the computer in this time (several DOS versions, OS/2, Win 3.11 and so on), there was countless sound cards and video cards that each one required a special tweak of the programming (Windows now handle most of it), but STILL, the games were not as buggy as they are now by far.
Why ?
Because Internet was not widely usable, and then it was not possible to sell unfinished products and patch them later.
Notice that there is still some games that happen to be released without too much bugs, so it's not like if it suddendly became impossible by the wish of God.

But why try to get rid of the bugs when you have a huge sheep herd that will buy anything that is thrown at them and dutyfully swallow anything while waiting for the patch ?

But see, the patches are out there... I don't understand why you won't buy the unpatched version and have the extra fun for a while, and then when the patches come out you simply download them? Is that not the same as buying the product when it comes with all the patches fully installed ANYWAY??? The difference? You get the game early this way and you'll get that final patch long before the "Gold" of whatever version comes out.

IF you're gonna buy it anyway, then I don't understand why you shouldn't buy it NOW and just patch it up. I don't mind at all that Firaxis brings it out early even if I have to patch it, because I've been waiting too long to play against my friends in Civ3 and use some new units, not to mention the wonderful scenario editor.

Oh, how God could not have I thought of it before !
Well, next time I'll buy a car, I don't want to wait it for being finished ! I'll go buy the engine and the wheels, then wait a bit for them to finish to build the seats and the bodywork, and once it's done I'll wait a little bit further to have the brakes and the windows...

"Well, Boss, you asked for my report about A, here it is. It lacks some pages here and here, I did not corrected the typos yet, perhaps that I mixed some parts with the report B, but all in all I think that you have most of it in the hands. Perhaps that I will finish it later, I mean if you're a good boy."

Were you REALLY serious when you asked me why I would wait to have a FINISHED product ?
It's called RESPECT FOR YOUR CONSUMERS. And even RESPECT in it's plain form. You don't sell something unfinished and buggy. Common sense.
Well, I can't believe I need to explain that.

And BTW, is this a joke about the "wonderful scenario editor" ? Are you kidding, or actually seriously putting "wonderful", "scenario" and "editor" in the same sentence ?
Great RULES editor, ok. But SCENARIO ? The one in Civ2 was MUCH better and it was SIX YEARS AGO !

If I had to wait a year for the perfect version then I think I'd go NUTZ!

Ii prefer to wait a bit and have a Finished product I can feel the developpers could take the time to polish and to put the finishing touches on, rather than to have it six months earlier and have a rushed piece of crap.

I think we should look at the sunny side of all of this ... AT LEAST THEY ARE giving us patches.. if they were really as bad as some people make them out to be, then they'd throw us the box like the pack of wolves we are and say "Screw you all" and that would be tne end of it .... I read someone above saying how if you get good food you have the right to complain. but once you eat that food its done ... once you buy Civ3 PTW its not over so quickly ... they are fixing problems and thats what matters; what they ARE doing

I bought it and I love it and i've never had a crash and multiplayer with my friends is great.

Well, thanks for proving my point about people ready to swallow up anything and then sending the message "don't bother to polish and finish your games, anyway I'll just buy it".

They are giving us patchs ?! WOW !
They're so great !
I mean, it's so kind of them, they are actually deigning to finish the product ! How lucky we are ! That's so heroic !

Excuse me if I consider it GRANTED that anything I buy will actually be FINISHED.
Excuse me if I consider patching should be a LAST RESORT and the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM if needed, proving that something went wrong in the first place, and not a GIFT. A gift is to give you something that was not granted. The additionnal units in the Total Annihilation patches were GIFTS, and we were thankfull about. FINISHING the game through patches (meaning that it was sold unfinished) does not deserve thanks, it's the very very least you can ask (the very least being that the product should already be finished when you buy it).

[Akka]

perhaps you should consider my post a bit more before callying me a fanboy

when i say that the game's main feature is multiplayer, i mean that it's core target are people who DO have internet access(in the most usual cases, you need internet for multiplayer games)

As you say, it's the usual case. But there is MANY people that will play multiplayer without Internet. There is still LAN
Ok, it's a minority, but still, for them it's "sorry man you're just f*ck, wait for the patch to be in the CD of your favorite mag, or wait for one your friend to DL it".

And anyway, the comments of Olaf were not only restrained to PTW, but to the habits that the software industry has got to sell unfinished game "because we can patch them later".

so requesting from people who internet access and spend many hours online to download patch is not somthing big....

I agree it's not something big. But it's something disrespectful and it's somethin that imply you released your game unfinished, which is even more disrecpectful.

[yin26]

Unless and until the public speaks with its wallet, nothing will change.

A) If you feel like the game is 'too buggy' for you: return it. I know in some countries this is hard to do. Exchange it, if you can. Put it on E-bay. Trade for another game with a friend.

But get the game off your computer. Check back in several months for the Gold Edition and see what the buzz is.

B) Remind yourself that some companies are more trustworthy than others, but also know that ANY game is going to have some degree of bugginess. Is that me making an excuse? No. But bugs can range from 'harmless' exploits (setting up unlimited farms in AoK, for example) to a feature in its entirety not working out of the box (Civ and MP, anybody?).

Firaxis, in my view, is certainly guilty of putting 'broken' features on the market. But they also, generally, get around to fixing them.

Conclusion: With a company like Firaxis, NEVER buy the original version unless you are happy to wait months for patches as you play around problems.