You call that an argument?

[kgoodrid]

Alright, I've been holding my tongue for awhile, but I'm getting fed up with some people's attitudes about PTW and Firaxis.

First, I don't understand this explanation for the problems with PTW, which I copied from another thread:

"Well fine complain. But they will fix it. Lets see you try and make a perfect game."

I have seen many people say this. One of you please explain your logic. The whole 'gosh programming is hard thing' is the stupidst argument I have ever seen on a board, after more than a decade of posting.

Yes, programming is hard. My two best friends are programmers and they have to work their asses off. But is that an excuse? Why should we pat people that screw up on the back and say 'gosh they tried their best.' We paid money for a product. It is their JOB to be good at programming and to make good products. If we were going after some amateur, that would be one thing. But this is a game from the most respected and well known man in the business. If he is the best, then we should expect the best.

If a top auto company makes a car, and the wheels fall off, we don't say "Making cars is hard, lets see you do it.' We sue them for screwing up.

Or, for a less extreme example, if a restaurant's food makes you sick, you have the right to complain, get a refund, or not buy their products.

Now, I think PTW has some great stuff in it. I bought it mostly for the SP content, and so far I am pleased, although $30 is a lot for just that. I think some people are overreacting, but the main point I am getting at is that the people who are complaining about the people who are comlaining need to make a better argument. The game has problems and crashes for a lot of people. This is undisputable. As such, the people that are having problems have a right to complain, just as the people who are not having problems have a right to say how much they love the game.

So, please make a better argument when you try to stifle complaints. If you can make a valid argument for why people should not complain, then good for you. Until then, just ignore the threads that are for complaints and stick to the threads that you agree with or enjoy.

Kyle Goodridge
c/MAJ, S-3
Wolverine BN, University of Michigan

[Randolph]

I think a great deal of the "complaining about complaining" has to do with the shear mass of repetitive complaining. The same point doesn't need to be brought up 10+ times.

[alva]

And , this is a fansite

[Tassadar500]

But the point is if you're going to complain then complain. You dont have to make a thread about it. This is a civ fan site not a cive complaint site.

[redstar1]

It might well be a fansite but its also a forum where the developers themselves keep an eye out. I am a big Civ fan but its not perfect. SP has improved considerably since Civ3 was first released but the first version of multiplayer does have some issues. Certainly, criticism is valid but I agree that it does not need to be constantly repeated.

[Random Passerby]

If I remember correctly, the thread that you're quoting there was started by someone suggesting that this in an issue for consumer protection agencies. At the risk of sounding Republican, frankly I don't see that it's any of the government's business if a fool gets parted from his money. If I walk into a used car lot, point at a car at random and say "I'll take that one" and sign all the forms without so much as a glance at any information relevant to the car's condition, I don't have any grounds for complaining if the car's a dud, and were I to sue, any judge who would actually give me anything is a judge the justice system could do without.

If Infogrames and/or Firaxis wants to produce shoddy products, that's their right, by God, and if people want to be stupid enough to make uninformed purchasing decisions, that's their right too. If people want to complain about their own poor consumer habits, that's their right as well--but all the same, I'd wish they'd be a bit more honest about it. Look at the front page:

"We`re aware that the gamespy connection stuff is problematic right now and it`s the focus of our team. We`ve got a list of things that will be fixed in this patch and that along with host slowdowns are on the agenda. So far I haven`t heard of any single player issues, editor or LAN/PBEM/Hotseat issues so right now we`re focused on internet performance....

We`re looking into a list of about 5 major issues related to internet play right now. One new feature of the patch will be a direct connect IP option."

Are these the words of a shady car salesman trying to pass a lemon off? Anyone who read these words and bought the game anyway has very little ground to complain. Anyone who didn't, doesn't have much more ground anyways--it's not like it would have killed you to actually wait a day or two past the announced release date and see how things went.

[yin26]

[For the 'Told You So' files.]

Seasoned gamers, such as myself, decided to wait until the Gold Edition arrives. Don't get me wrong: I am thankful to all the people here who continue to pay to beta test PtW. It reminds me of uncooked cookie dough, really: Getting the cookie early tastes fantastic those first few bites ... until you realize the unfinished version is about to cause you to puke.

I'll wait 'til Civ3 is done cooking, thank you.

Yes, I am a far wiser (and richer) Yin ...

[MarkG]

/me bows at Random Passerby's simple yet cruel common sense logic

[Mahdimael]

Certainly, to some degree, it amounts to "buyer beware" when buying anything.

That said, if what happened in the software industry happened in any other industry, it would almost certainly be criminal. If someone sold you a washing machine that made a lot of noise and lights but didn't actually wash your clothes, you would be justifiably angry. However, because software manufacturers can patch their products, they're given an out- they can release a broken product and just work on it until it's fixed or it's "fixed" (to whatever arbitrary point they feel like fixing them).

I know programming is hard. I do it myself. But there are things that are far, far harder- rocketry, medicine, and so forth. How many rockets or heart surgeries have to be "patched"? Yet there's always a bevy of patches with a current game release- and always the "post-gold,pre-release" patch.

I'm as big a fan of Civ as anyone...as a fan, I should be there to congratulate for the good, and to complain about the bad. I can't be sheeplike and swallow whatever the game company wants me to. And if there are many repeated complaints, that should only indicate the severity of the problem.

I currently play two games- Civ3 and Battlefield 1942- and neither works well via the Internet. Both need to be and should be fixed.

It's up to you to decide what you will do? Will you stand by silently and let the game companies release whatever quality software that they want, or will you make your voice heard and let them know that they need to do better?

[MarkG]

Will you stand by silently and let the game companies release whatever quality software that they want, or will you make your voice heard and let them know that they need to do better?

noone is asking for silent sheeplike customers.

but the ownership of this site(and the grand majority of it's visitors) DO ask not to have to deal with uncesessary rants which can also be done by opening your window and shouting

opinions backed with arguments, problem reports with their, are all welcome. rants and repetitive whining is not.

[Mahdimael]

Agreed.
The volume of one's argument should never exceed it's logic, reason and validity. Yelling never gets anything done.

Originally posted by MarkG

Will you stand by silently and let the game companies release whatever quality software that they want, or will you make your voice heard and let them know that they need to do better?

noone is asking for silent sheeplike customers.

but the ownership of this site(and the grand majority of it's visitors) DO ask not to have to deal with uncesessary rants which can also be done by opening your window and shouting

opinions backed with arguments, problem reports with their, are all welcome. rants and repetitive whining is not.

[vmxa1]

I am not going to make any issues with your complaint about the complaints, but can we drop the analogy to cars please?
When they charge 20K for PTW and you can get kill using it if it is faulty, then you can make the comparison. I have seen the car bit quite a few times and it is as silly as the stuff you are mentioning. Many people do not sweat the $30 and will not get a lawyer due to a prercieved problem.

[Zurai]

Originally posted by Mahdimael
That said, if what happened in the software industry happened in any other industry, it would almost certainly be criminal. If someone sold you a washing machine that made a lot of noise and lights but didn't actually wash your clothes, you would be justifiably angry. However, because software manufacturers can patch their products, they're given an out- they can release a broken product and just work on it until it's fixed or it's "fixed" (to whatever arbitrary point they feel like fixing them).

Software isn't comparable to a washing machine. Software isn't comparable to a car. Software isn't comparable to a book. Software isn't comparable to a movie. A game like Civ3 will have ~5 million lines of code and ~15 million or more words, and if ANY of those words are misspelled or put in the wrong place in the grammatical structure, there will be a bug. I challenge *anyone* to write 15 million meaningful words and not have a single spelling error or grammatical mistake.

I know programming is hard. I do it myself. But there are things that are far, far harder- rocketry, medicine, and so forth. How many rockets or heart surgeries have to be "patched"? Yet there's always a bevy of patches with a current game release- and always the "post-gold,pre-release" patch.

Actually, rocketry is pretty damn easy. The only tricky part is working out *exactly* how much fuel you need, since by adding fuel you add weight. And with that said - LOTS of space missions and heart surgeries fail. Ever hear of the Mars missions? You know, the ones where half the spacecraft malfunctioned? And heart surgery is risky for a reason - they don't always work, and even when they do the doctors frequently have to do follow up surgery, which is directly comparable to a patch. Sorry, your logic is flawed.

I'm as big a fan of Civ as anyone...as a fan, I should be there to congratulate for the good, and to complain about the bad. I can't be sheeplike and swallow whatever the game company wants me to. And if there are many repeated complaints, that should only indicate the severity of the problem.

Sorry, but most of the things people complain about aren't even bugs. Following the loudest complaints is a really stupid idea for finding bugs.

[alva]

I agree with most what you said in your post, but

it's not like it would have killed you to actually wait a day or two past the announced release date and see how things went.

Now, if we all did this.........

[Mahdimael]

Originally posted by Zurai


Software isn't comparable to a washing machine. Software isn't comparable to a car. Software isn't comparable to a book. Software isn't comparable to a movie. A game like Civ3 will have ~5 million lines of code and ~15 million or more words, and if ANY of those words are misspelled or put in the wrong place in the grammatical structure, there will be a bug. I challenge *anyone* to write 15 million meaningful words and not have a single spelling error or grammatical mistake.

You're right in saying that it's impossible for code to be perfect from the get go. If you've ever worked in the software industry, though, you know that part of the design process is revision. You revise something until it works before you release it. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to happen these days for whatever reason.

Software is analagous to every product that's for sale in this way: A company or person creates a product that boasts certain features, and the person purchases that product due to those claims. The results are certainly more serious if your car doesn't have working brakes or whatever, but when a person buys a product, they expect (rightfully) that the features claimed will be there.

Originally posted by Zurai
Actually, rocketry is pretty damn easy. The only tricky part is working out *exactly* how much fuel you need, since by adding fuel you add weight. And with that said - LOTS of space missions and heart surgeries fail. Ever hear of the Mars missions? You know, the ones where half the spacecraft malfunctioned? And heart surgery is risky for a reason - they don't always work, and even when they do the doctors frequently have to do follow up surgery, which is directly comparable to a patch. Sorry, your logic is flawed.

Rather than get in an argument over rocketry or heart surgery, I'll clarify my point to you: In situations where millions of dollars or lives are at stake, those involved ensure to the best of their ability that what they're trying to do will work. As stated before, software is much less important- however, does that give the company license to be more careless with it's product, and to release it without ensuring it works, especially with one of the fundamental features intact?

Originally posted by Zurai
Sorry, but most of the things people complain about aren't even bugs. Following the loudest complaints is a really stupid idea for finding bugs.

Loudest isn't the key- numerous is. If 100 or 1000 people complain that multiplayer in a game doesn't work, or that their car's clutch works improperly, then that should indicate a problem. When the things being complained about are key features of a product, that should indicate a serious problem.