You call that an argument?

[kgoodrid]

Originally posted by Zurai


I challenge *anyone* to write 15 million meaningful words and not have a single spelling error or grammatical mistake.

Cripes, this was JUST what my original post was about!!

This is such a ridiculous excuse! Again, writing strong code is their JOB!!! That is what they get paid for. How many good authors have common spelling mistakes in their numerous novels? Not many. Teams of people code, but a single author writes a book with a couple editors checking it over.

Again, I challange you to make a VALID argument for why people should not be allowed to complain. As I said, some people are a bit out of line. But the 'this is a fansite' is also a silly argument. If this was a fansite, as you seem to be defining a fansite, then it would have picturs of Sid and his cat and gossip about the programmers. You imply that a site dedicated to a game has to be all positive. I disagree. A site about a game is ABOUT THAT GAME, warts and all. You can't claim that a site is a comprehensive look at a subject unless it talks about all aspects of that subject, good and bad.

Originally posted by Random Passerby

If I walk into a used car lot, point at a car at random and say "I'll take that one" and sign all the forms without so much as a glance at any information relevant to the car's condition, I don't have any grounds for complaining if the car's a dud, and were I to sue, any judge who would actually give me anything is a judge the justice system could do without.

This is a poorly constructed argument. You are saying that people should inform themselves about products, but that they shouldn't complain when those products are messed up. How exactly do you expect people to inform themselves about a product if people are not allowed to speak of that products problems? If people cannot post about problems with a game, then there is no way for others to make the informed choice that you demand. I waited a few days to buy PTW so that I could read up on it, and I almost didn't buy it based on the problems I heard about.

Again, I agree that anyone complaining has to be careful to back up their arguments. I like PTW, and I'll like it even more when the outstanding issues get resolved. However, too many people that are making perfectly valid complaints are being shouted down by the 'Firaxis can do no wrong' crowd.

If you don't want to hear about the problems anymore, then don't read the posts about problems. Its that simple. Let those of us who want to talk about them talk about them, for our own benefit and the benefit of people that may be deciding whether they want to buy. They can compare what we say with what the fanboys say.

[Minuteman]

Originally posted by kgoodrid

If you don't want to hear about the problems anymore, then don't read the posts about problems. Its that simple. Let those of us who want to talk about them talk about them, for our own benefit and the benefit of people that may be deciding whether they want to buy. They can compare what we say with what the fanboys say.

You do realize that tolerance of this sort is a two-way proposition, correct? In addition, you initiated this thread, and stated your opinions in unequivocal terms. Aren't people permitted to take you task on those opinions if they disagree with some of the finer points of your argument? If you agree that they are, then why devote so much energy rebuking them for it? After all, as the old saying goes, "you asked for it", right?

My only "complaint", as it were, against those who devote so much of their time and energy in criticizing this game, and those who like, is why would anyone devote themselves so ardently to something that they're not deriving any joy from? I mean, if you loathe this game so much, why waste your time with it?

Now don't get wrong, Kgoodrid. I'm not necessarily directing this argument at you, but rather the entire body of people here who have spent countless hours, weeks, and months negatively obsessing over what amounts to a child's toy...a mere video game.

If modern psychology teaches us anything, it is that such obsessions with "joyless" endeavors is usually a symptom of much deeper emotional problems. Put simply, people who pursue things that they consciously find anathema usually do so out of some deep-rooted sense of self-hatred and loathing.

Again, if this product is so awful, and creates nothing but feelings of anger, and a sense of feeling "ripped-off", then why not seek a refund and be rid of the headache? After all, what healthy person who possesses a modicum of self-love would want to subject themselves to such gut-wrenching torment?

[Switch]

Originally posted by Mahdimael
Rather than get in an argument over rocketry or heart surgery, I'll clarify my point to you: In situations where millions of dollars or lives are at stake, those involved ensure to the best of their ability that what they're trying to do will work. As stated before, software is much less important- however, does that give the company license to be more careless with it's product, and to release it without ensuring it works, especially with one of the fundamental features intact?

Actually, it does. Do you ever hear people getting excited over a new dishwasher that's about to be released? No, because nobody knows about the dishwasher until it's released usually. Or with new rockets, we may know about it for years before it's finished, but with science-related things people realize that it takes time to make a product good. And, again, there isn't the incredible hysteria you get with an upcoming game.

So, gamers want the game NOW! To please the community, and to keep it sustained and not letting it die, the developers have to go quickly developing the game. Mistakes get made, and there isn't time to fix them. They have deadlines to meet, and if they're missed people get mad. If a dealine is missed for building a rocket you just fire a guy or two.

So, in other words there is no relation. You could only relate computergame production to something that has a similar market and expected release dates are released publicly.

Give the designers a brake. It IS partly our fault that games have so many bugs these days.

[alva]

And , this is a fansite

But the 'this is a fansite' is also a silly argument. If this was a fansite, as you seem to be defining a fansite, then it would have picturs of Sid and his cat and gossip about the programmers. You imply that a site dedicated to a game has to be all positive. I disagree. A site about a game is ABOUT THAT GAME, warts and all.

Why I said fansite is, that most people here, will defend Firaxis over Infogrames. Probably some David and Goliath thing .

You are off-course right about the warts and all

[Zurai]

Originally posted by kgoodrid

This is such a ridiculous excuse! Again, writing strong code is their JOB!!! That is what they get paid for. How many good authors have common spelling mistakes in their numerous novels? Not many. Teams of people code, but a single author writes a book with a couple editors checking it over.

Civ3 IS strong code. And about your authors comment: I suggest you pick up any popular novel and actually go through, counting spelling and grammar mistakes. You'll find a LOT more than you expect. I once counted 23 spelling errors and quite a few odd grammatical structures in a ~400 page book. That's between 50,000 and 100,000 words. If you mutliply the 23:100,000 ratio to 15 million words (theoretical number for Civ3), you get about 3500 bugs. In reality, it's not reasonable to use a linear scale.

As for your "teams of people code" - not always. I know of a game (Darkspace, www.darkspace.net) that was coded entirely by *one* person, with over 1 million lines of code. Even when teams of people DO work together to code - ever heard the saying "too many cooks spoil the soup"? That's what happens when there's a lot of people working on different parts of a game. When one person programs, he's able to insure that all parts of the game are 100% compatible from the get-go. When 100 people code, that simply isn't going to happen. 100 people will have 100 different approaches to the same piece of code.

Again, I challange you to make a VALID argument for why people should not be allowed to complain. As I said, some people are a bit out of line. But the 'this is a fansite' is also a silly argument. If this was a fansite, as you seem to be defining a fansite, then it would have picturs of Sid and his cat and gossip about the programmers. You imply that a site dedicated to a game has to be all positive. I disagree. A site about a game is ABOUT THAT GAME, warts and all. You can't claim that a site is a comprehensive look at a subject unless it talks about all aspects of that subject, good and bad.

I never said you shouldn't complain. I said that you should know what the hell you're talking about before you complain. Having a game perfectly 100% bugfree is impossible. Hell, making a "Hello World" program is impossible to make bugfree unless you write it in assembly - and then it'll only work on a VERY narrow range of machines. Why? Because the compilers themselves introduce some bugs. Oh, and don't suggest writing games in Assembly, either - it takes easily 10 times as much time and effort, and is much, much, MUCH harder than using a high-level language like C or C++.

As I said in another thread, it's perfectly reasonable to complain about gamebreaking bugs, like if the game crashes constantly at a certain point. It's reasonable to *point out* minor bugs like a glitchy animation so that the programmers can get it fixed. It's not valid to trash the developers simply because you want them to do the impossible - release a game with NO bugs.

In all actuality, the devs do NOT want to release a game with noticable bugs. 95% of the blame falls on publishers that force the products out of the door before they've been through extensive QA and re-QA sessions. The reason the publishers push games out early is because fans demand their games NOW and will pay for the game before it's even gold. It's the industry itself that should get the complaints for a (single) extremely buggy release. Only if a developer has a history of quite a few extremely buggy releases, independant of publishers, should the developer get the lion's share of the blame.

[Zurai]

Double post

[Mahdimael]

I don't disagree with you about whose fault it is. The publishers are mostly to blame, in my opinion. They need to get games out before the quarter/holidays and tell the developers to get it done. Public demand, too, helps rush games out. What irks me is that nowhere along the line, someone says "Hey, we haven't implemented this or that yet correctly". Then the game is released prematurely and everyone is surprised when there are complaints and the reputation of the companies involved decrease.

At some point, it's going to be too much. Already, there's been backlash against CD copy protection, and if people get tired of being constantly jacked when they buy a game, there will be a backlash against buggy software as well.

Originally posted by Switch
Actually, it does. Do you ever hear people getting excited over a new dishwasher that's about to be released? No, because nobody knows about the dishwasher until it's released usually. Or with new rockets, we may know about it for years before it's finished, but with science-related things people realize that it takes time to make a product good. And, again, there isn't the incredible hysteria you get with an upcoming game.

So, gamers want the game NOW! To please the community, and to keep it sustained and not letting it die, the developers have to go quickly developing the game. Mistakes get made, and there isn't time to fix them. They have deadlines to meet, and if they're missed people get mad. If a dealine is missed for building a rocket you just fire a guy or two.

So, in other words there is no relation. You could only relate computergame production to something that has a similar market and expected release dates are released publicly.

Give the designers a brake. It IS partly our fault that games have so many bugs these days.

[WarpStorm]

Originally posted by Mahdimael
What irks me is that nowhere along the line, someone says "Hey, we haven't implemented this or that yet correctly".

Actually happens all the time. The developer says "Hey, we haven't implemented this or that yet correctly", the publisher says "We paid you, ship it or talk to our lawyers". Small developers don't have a lot of choice.

[[FX]Roman]

Originally posted by alva848
And , this is a fansite

Yes, this is a fansite... Not a fanboi site. Llama.

[Random Passerby]

First off, Firaxis is not a pack of bloodthirsty marauders against which consumers must band together to protect their wallets from; a quick glance at the news posts here at Apolyton (easily accessible via search engine within a minute and a half of searching) will tell you about everything you need to know, straight from Firaxis (well, almost straight, anyhow), within a week of the game having gone gold, let alone having reached store shelves. The game designers came out and said "We're working on it, especially on this issue and this and this" before the projected retail date. If you'd rather base your purchasing call on seeing "WTF is this crap?!! firaxis blows dude (angry face x10)" than the developers' honest admissions, that's your prerogative, but I think P.T. Barnum might have a thing or two to say about you.

Secondly, never have I said that people couldn't complain. Exactly the opposite, in fact. I merely wish that they'd make more sensible complaints. And, for that matter, I don't care so much about those either, but when people start talking about fraud and criminal repercussions it just sickens me. Suppose you buy PTW--you hand your thirty bucks to the software store, go home, try to get the net play working, and quit in disgust. You go back to the software store, return PTW for store credit, spend thirty bucks on something you'd find more enjoyable. At this instant, Firaxis' net financial obligation to you comes to a grand total of $0. You cannot in good conscience hold them responsible for anything more. That doesn't mean that it's inconcievable that you might get some judge to award you punitive damages, but in that case you're guilty of perpetrating a far, far worse evil than anything Firaxis has ever done.

[Nubclear]

I said that you should know what the hell you're talking about before you complain.

If I had a penny for every time EITHER side gave that statement......

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by Nuclear Master
But the point is if you're going to complain then complain. You dont have to make a thread about it. This is a civ fan site not a cive complaint site.

So what you're saying is you're fan and you'll put up with being treated like dirt.

[MarkG]

if people are not allowed to speak of that products problems?

do you see here people not being allowed to speak?

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by MarkG

if people are not allowed to speak of that products problems?

do you see here people not being allowed to speak?

My thread about defective products and consumer rights was closed

Even though Civ III PTW probably breaches Section 52, misleading and deceptive conduct, and Section 53, misrepresentation, of the Australian Trade Practices Act.

Oh dear - very heavy penalties for that. I guess Firaxis and Infogames like to live dangerously

Oh and I've already alerted my friends in the Australian Consumer and Competition Commission about this product so no need to reopen my thread Mark

[MarkG]

you have no consumer rights horsie when you havent bought the product