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**Zero** · October 11, 2002, 00:10

"The pioneer stole the cookies from the cookie Jar!"
"Who me?"
"Yes you"
"Couldn't be"
"Then who?"
"Palaiologos stole the cookie from the cookie jar!"
(and so the children's accusing game continues)

Well Palaiologos, i see it more like a cycle thing, leaders can affect the outcome of wat public wants, wat public want can affect the outcome of leader's choice. Its a mob psychology. Almost no one has full control in these issues.

For one in control can incite the mob, use propaganda, emotional speeches. Rally up the mob.

Leader's need support. No matter how skillful leaders are without support they are nothing. Even despots need supports. They just come from guys with guns. Who don't rebel agst leaders.

Something like racial hatred is like an nearly impossible cycle. Mobs already have seeds of racial hatred in them. Leader's will not get support if they will go against it. And when leader's use racism as a tool, people will be drawn by it, then leaders will use propaganda to draw the mob to false ideas. and the loop of hatred will continue.

I think this is why MLK Jr. and Ghandi is so extraordinary.

**The Pioneer** · October 11, 2002, 03:43

Palaiologos, would you like to go to war? No need to answer that! It was meant as a rhetorical question!

Geopolitical conflicts or not some leaders are more blood thirsty than others and more than often it's their propaganda that turn the minds of its people toward war. No normal human being likes to go to war but leaders more often than not take that route because it's easier than to have the courage to negotiate and choose the way of peace.

So long...

**gsmoove23** · October 11, 2002, 13:46

Could somebody tell me, what the h*** is a Skopjan?

**Ataturk** · October 11, 2002, 15:11

hello my greek friend;

well u turned this post to another turkish hating post;

a few suggestions for u;

stop wasting ur loser life with ur dreams of past and all, start to live again, u know life is beatiful; come to turkey visit us, drink tea looking at bhosporus, visit hagia sophia, which is a museum now.

life is too short for racist, and full of hatred behavior. take it easy, it wasn't ur country anyways, that land all belonged to Byzantine Empire also called Eastern Roman Empire, they were Roman, they conquered you like we did( I am so sorry again),

pls stop bad mouthing my country, go have sex with ur girlfriend or wife, go to a zoo or something play civ3,

Topic was what should ottomans be which i think militaristic and expansionist.

By the way i would have liked a Janissary UU instead of siphais, which should have been replacement for a knght not cavalry in the first place.

**Palaiologos** · October 11, 2002, 15:38

Originally posted by Ataturk
hello my greek friend;

well u turned this post to another turkish hating post;

a few suggestions for u;

stop wasting ur loser life with ur dreams of past and all, start to live again, u know life is beatiful; come to turkey visit us, drink tea looking at bhosporus, visit hagia sophia, which is a museum now.

life is too short for racist, and full of hatred behavior. take it easy, it wasn't ur country anyways, that land all belonged to Byzantine Empire also called Eastern Roman Empire, they were Roman, they conquered you like we did( I am so sorry again),

pls stop bad mouthing my country, go have sex with ur girlfriend or wife, go to a zoo or something play civ3,

Topic was what should ottomans be which i think militaristic and expansionist.

By the way i would have liked a Janissary UU instead of siphais, which should have been replacement for a knght not cavalry in the first place.

What the hell Ataturk, you are somebody's DL or something?
You only have one post.

I will not go into what the Byzantine Empire actually was(They spoke Greek, most were of the Greek race, and during the final years started calling themselves Hellenes), but every Greek considers them their country.

AND THE WHOLE ANTI-TURKISH CONVERSATION STARTED BECAUSE I CLAIMED THAT FIREAXIS MADE THE OTTOMANS SCIENTIFIC AND INDUSTRIUS BECAUSE THEY LISTENED TO TURKISH PROPAGANDA.

And they are called Spahis not siphai. So much for your knowledge of Turkish history. I agree with you on the traits and UU.

**Palaiologos** · October 11, 2002, 15:43

And as for your suggestions to go have sex etc.....
Try to understand that there are other things in life apart from having fun.

Honour, Respect, and self-sacrifice are some the values in life that people like you will never understand.

Life is too short to spend it for fun.

**Palaiologos** · October 11, 2002, 15:53

Pioneer, why do you leftists always think that those who dislike Turks wan't to go to war?

What do YOU think should have been the proper reaction at the IMIA incident? Shake hands and divide the Aegean?

Perhaps we were at a military disavantage against the Turks but war is not always fought with the prospect of victory. Perhaps in Civ terms the player would consider paying tribute to the stronger, but not in real life where the nation's honour is at stake.

War is not wanted but sometimes is the prefered alternative to submission.

Thermopylae would never happen if King Leonidas thought the way you do.

**Yasko** · December 7, 2002, 11:35

Hey guys lets discuss the game ok? Please spare us the "buuhuuuu turks kicked our ass for 500 years ago" whining. Massacres was pretty common in the "age of nationalism" in balkan lands. During the 1800s and 1900s everyone was both victims and villians(spelling?). Turks, Greeks, Serbians, Bulgarians all of them did some stupid things...

Personally i would prefer the name Turks/Turkish/Turkey. Leader should be Sulayman since the Turks was strongest under his leadership. Additional army leaders should be Alp Arslan, Bilge Kagan and Ataturk. Sipahi emerges late in the game i think that it existed before Cavalary. When Cavalary was "discovered" the ottomans was already in decline. Golden Age of the ottomans and sipahi was during the 1300s, 1400s and early 1500s. The turkish Civ should get Sipahi when Gunpowder is discovered and it should cost something like 70 and have the ratings A/D/M 5/3/2. The turkish Civ should be militaristic and religios. Preferred gov. monarchy, stunned; communism. Thats what i am going to edit in Play the World

**Zero** · December 7, 2002, 13:34

Originally posted by Yasko
Hey guys lets discuss the game ok? Please spare us the "buuhuuuu turks kicked our ass for 500 years ago" whining. Massacres was pretty common in the "age of nationalism" in balkan lands. During the 1800s and 1900s everyone was both victims and villians(spelling?). Turks, Greeks, Serbians, Bulgarians all of them did some stupid things...

ur dead on. stop this pointless jibba jabba. I think poly wasted enough webspace with these repetitive posts.

**ChaotikVisions** · December 8, 2002, 01:16

On a only slightly related subjected, anyone else think the Siphai's animation rules? Kinda funny to see a lightly armored knight-unit whip out two pistols and start blasting.

**The Pioneer** · December 9, 2002, 07:36

Originally posted by Palaiologos
Pioneer, why do you leftists always think that those who dislike Turks wan't to go to war?

Now that's a first! I have never been called that, under normal circumstances I would've been insulted but then you really do not know me, that's why it is ok to call me that.

. It's because of all the grievances you express and the way you express them. There is an underlying tone of vengefulness and anger. You're not going to anywhere with that. That's why, often, we are not taken seriously by the int'l community. We as Greeks have to come to the point where we should accept some things as they are.

Not wanting to go to war each time some argument comes up doesn't make you a leftist

!

So long...

**The Pioneer** · December 9, 2002, 07:38

Originally posted by Yasko
Hey guys lets discuss the game ok? Please spare us the "buuhuuuu turks kicked our ass for 500 years ago" whining. Massacres was pretty common in the "age of nationalism" in balkan lands. During the 1800s and 1900s everyone was both victims and villians(spelling?). Turks, Greeks, Serbians, Bulgarians all of them did some stupid things...

I agree whole heartedly! I am sure that a lot of nasty things happened but I, more often than not, find that we in Greece have never overcome our past. We have been overshadowed from our ancient ancestors and we also seem to never get over the turkish problem

!

So long...

**BigFurryMonster** · December 9, 2002, 12:41

It seems everyone has insulted everyone else in this thread....

**The Pioneer** · December 9, 2002, 13:57

That may be so but I am not really insulted I just finded funny that we are still arguing after I don't know how many years!!!!

If the Jews nurtured such resentment against the German for the Holocaust the same way Greeks do against the Turks we would still be fighting the second world war

.

Anyway, I've learned that life is too short to nurture hatred and resentment.

So long...

**Yasko** · December 9, 2002, 14:27

So any comments about the sipahi? I just feel that it comes too late in the game right now. Honestly i would prefer the horse archers as turkish special unit. They were deadly and played an important role during the turkish conquest of anatolia in 11th and 12th century. And this unit could replace the Knight(turks did not have this unit anyway) unit.

On a second thougth preffered gov. Republic is not so bad after all. I think that Turkey was the first moslem country that became a Republic.

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