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Originally posted by Hagbart
What does this have to do with science?..
What does this have to do with science?..
Absolutely nothing.
Read molly bloom's first post.
I am accused of bias against the Turks.
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Absolutely nothing.
Read molly bloom's first post.
I am accused of bias against the Turks."Military training has three purposes: 1)To save ourselves from becoming subjects to others, 2)to win for our own city a possition of leadership, exercised for the benefit of others and 3)to exercise the rule of a master over those who deserve to be treated as slaves."-Aristotle, The Politics, Book VII
All those who want to die, follow me!
Last words of Emperor Constantine XII Palaiologos, before charging the Turkish hordes, on the 29th of May 1453AD. -
Originally posted by XOR
Let's just put it in general Terms, because really, Chinese made much more impressive scientific breaktroughs than the Ottomans, let's leave the nowadays Turks behind and speak about the Ottoman empire.
What was their level of sophistication on:
a- Manufacturing: Not their great infrastructure as to build 1000 battleships, just what level of complexity it had. If they barely built hand tools or if they actually build more complex machines like cars and trains (no matter if they actually invented or not).
b- Education: Did they have an above-contemporary-average educational system? How was their literacy rate compared to the rest of the world? Did their educational system include highly technical material (like engineering institutions) or just basic things and bureaucracy (acounting/laws) in general?
c- Exportable technology/discoveries/invention: How much of the techniques developed by the turks ended up being relevant enough for the rest of the world to copy them? How much in our biology/chemistry/physics books comes from their discoveries?
You certainly must get one or another thing, with the huge numbers of things invented in the world some of them must have been invented by Ottomans, but I seriously doubt that Ottomans were any more scientifically productive than their contemporaries.
The mere fact that 54% (maybe more) of the Turks is still illiterate proves that it is definetely a scientific nation and patrons of the arts.
My specialty is military history XOR, so my answer will be based on that.
Turkish warships were greatly inferior in construction and technology than the Venetian's or even the Byzantine's of the previous years.And combined with the "traditional Turkish seamanship"....
The Turk's use of cannons although innovative at first, quickly fell behind from Europe's. The Burgundians and French quickly surpassed them.
They were quite advanced in bureocracy though.
And their infrastucture was more or less sophisticated, a heritage of the conquered Roman Empire.
ALL Turkish technologies have been copied by others and reached even the modern era. Both of them. Sofa and toilets.
Some people don't seem to understand that since Fireaxis classified the Turks as Scientific, they are put into the same category as the Greeks and Germans.
Molly bloom, Spiffor you really don't want me to bring quotes and links to support this statement, do you?"Military training has three purposes: 1)To save ourselves from becoming subjects to others, 2)to win for our own city a possition of leadership, exercised for the benefit of others and 3)to exercise the rule of a master over those who deserve to be treated as slaves."-Aristotle, The Politics, Book VII
All those who want to die, follow me!
Last words of Emperor Constantine XII Palaiologos, before charging the Turkish hordes, on the 29th of May 1453AD.Comment
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Well, judging by the rest of the new civs:
Spanish should have been expansionist religious and the arabs religoius commercial. Of this I am sure. The Vikings seem to me to have been better commercial instead of expansionist. But of this I am not so sure, it would, at least, reduce the number of Mil/Exp.Carthaginians: Commercial/Industrius
Koreans: Commercial/Scientific
Mongols: Militaristic/Expansionist
Vikings: Militaristic/Expansionist
Spanish: Religious/Commercial
Celts: Religious/Militaristic
Arabs: Expansionist/Religious
Turks: Industrial/Scientific
The Ottomans are totally unbelievable, Scientific... and, Industrial... both... are probably the things that the Ottomans were the least.
Militaristic I'd believe, as their UU description seems to be part arsenal and part social status. Then I'd give expansionist if expansionist served something, since expansionist is worthless I would not mind Militaristic/Scientific or Militaristic/Industrial, even if none of the 2 traits actually reflect anything they are better than the worthless expansionist trait. But they could be Mil/Rel (there's 3 already) or even Mil/Com preferably as well.
There's also the fact that Zulus and Mongols are already going to be Mil/Exp. If they leave Vikings as they are (I hope not) they will leave us with 3 Mil/Exps. Not good. We will probably end up with 3 Mil/Rels, but Mil/Rel is a good combination.
I know, someone will probably come in and say "the editor blah, blah, blah", but some of the specifications seem a bit absurd. The only actual reason I'd see to make the Turks Ind/Sci is that there is only 1 Ind/Sci ATM. But there is also only 1 Mil/Com, only one Sci/Com and only one Mil/Ind. But it would probably be more apropriate to make the Americans the other Ind/Sci.Last edited by XOR; September 16, 2002, 15:51.Vini, Vidi, Poluti.Comment
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Yes Pala yes..Originally posted by Palaiologos
No hagbart, no.
Kalinicus, Herodotus, Archimedes, Colombus, Gallileus(not sure how it's in English), are just a few of great innovators and thinkers that did not come from the upper class. They came from the middle class.
I am sure i can find many more if i think of it but these come first to my mind.
You can think of a lot more in the upper class. Just think of all the great physics, chemistry and matematics people. Newton, Pascal, Kepler, Coulomb, Joule, Brahe etc. Most of the time only people in the upper class could get the education needed to be great scientists...Try my Lord of the Rings MAP out: Lands of Middle Earth v2 NEWS: Now It's a flat map, optimized for Conquests
The new iPod nano: nanoComment
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All african tribes made some kind of art. You can't deny that. Cannibals or not...Originally posted by Palaiologos
You can't be serius.
Are you trying to raise your postcount or something?
Try my Lord of the Rings MAP out: Lands of Middle Earth v2 NEWS: Now It's a flat map, optimized for Conquests
The new iPod nano: nanoComment
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Militaristic/commercial would be perfect for the Vikings..Try my Lord of the Rings MAP out: Lands of Middle Earth v2 NEWS: Now It's a flat map, optimized for Conquests
The new iPod nano: nanoComment
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Originally posted by Hagbart
Yes Pala yes..
You can think of a lot more in the upper class. Just think of all the great physics, chemistry and matematics people. Newton, Pascal, Kepler, Coulomb, Joule, Brahe etc. Most of the time only people in the upper class could get the education needed to be great scientists...
I agree Hagbart.But how many of these were Turks?
And how many were in the middle class?"Military training has three purposes: 1)To save ourselves from becoming subjects to others, 2)to win for our own city a possition of leadership, exercised for the benefit of others and 3)to exercise the rule of a master over those who deserve to be treated as slaves."-Aristotle, The Politics, Book VII
All those who want to die, follow me!
Last words of Emperor Constantine XII Palaiologos, before charging the Turkish hordes, on the 29th of May 1453AD.Comment
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Originally posted by Hagbart
All african tribes made some kind of art. You can't deny that. Cannibals or not...
And all people can think.
Does that make them philosophers?
And for God's Sake i didn't mean to insult Africa...
I just thought of a kind of peoples that have nothing to do with Art.
I offered an extreme example in an attempt to strengthen my arguments.
And yes Vikings should be militaristic\commercial. That's ideal for them historically.Last edited by Palaiologos; September 16, 2002, 18:11."Military training has three purposes: 1)To save ourselves from becoming subjects to others, 2)to win for our own city a possition of leadership, exercised for the benefit of others and 3)to exercise the rule of a master over those who deserve to be treated as slaves."-Aristotle, The Politics, Book VII
All those who want to die, follow me!
Last words of Emperor Constantine XII Palaiologos, before charging the Turkish hordes, on the 29th of May 1453AD.Comment
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And i really hope that those who argue with me take a look at the previous posts, not just those on page 7.
"Military training has three purposes: 1)To save ourselves from becoming subjects to others, 2)to win for our own city a possition of leadership, exercised for the benefit of others and 3)to exercise the rule of a master over those who deserve to be treated as slaves."-Aristotle, The Politics, Book VII
All those who want to die, follow me!
Last words of Emperor Constantine XII Palaiologos, before charging the Turkish hordes, on the 29th of May 1453AD.Comment
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I agree with almost all of that. If the list remains the same I'll change them as follows:Originally posted by XOR
Spanish should have been expansionist religious and the arabs religoius commercial. Of this I am sure. The Vikings seem to me to have been better commercial instead of expansionist. But of this I am not so sure, it would, at least, reduce the number of Mil/Exp.
The Ottomans are totally unbelievable, Scientific... and, Industrial... both... are probably the things that the Ottomans were the least.
Militaristic I'd believe, as their UU description seems to be part arsenal and part social status. Then I'd give expansionist if expansionist served something, since expansionist is worthless I would not mind Militaristic/Scientific or Militaristic/Industrial, even if none of the 2 traits actually reflect anything they are better than the worthless expansionist trait. But they could be Mil/Rel (there's 3 already) or even Mil/Com preferably as well.
Vikings: Militaristic/Commercial
Spanish: Religious/Expansionist
Arabs: Religious/Commercial or Religious/Scientific
Turks: Militaristic/Expansionist or Militaristic/Religious"The only way to avoid being miserable is not to have enough leisure to wonder whether you are happy or not. "
--George Bernard Shaw
A fast word about oral contraception. I asked a girl to go to bed with me and she said "no".
--Woody AllenComment
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Still getting nowhere with this thread? Sorry i left, but i did take to much time (=Comment
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Don't worry Kaiser Issak.
Please accept my apologies for i mistook your absense as abdication.
Have you read all the arguments that were posted after you left?
I have written some of them but i find them all quite interesting.
I am still waiting for some sort of counter-argument to continue this very interesting discussion."Military training has three purposes: 1)To save ourselves from becoming subjects to others, 2)to win for our own city a possition of leadership, exercised for the benefit of others and 3)to exercise the rule of a master over those who deserve to be treated as slaves."-Aristotle, The Politics, Book VII
All those who want to die, follow me!
Last words of Emperor Constantine XII Palaiologos, before charging the Turkish hordes, on the 29th of May 1453AD.Comment
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Some info about The Turks & The Ottomans written by me if you'd like to read...
ThanksComment
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Originally posted by Gauke
Some info about The Turks & The Ottomans written by me if you'd like to read...
Thanks
I have already read that. I don't think Huns were your ancestors, however."Military training has three purposes: 1)To save ourselves from becoming subjects to others, 2)to win for our own city a possition of leadership, exercised for the benefit of others and 3)to exercise the rule of a master over those who deserve to be treated as slaves."-Aristotle, The Politics, Book VII
All those who want to die, follow me!
Last words of Emperor Constantine XII Palaiologos, before charging the Turkish hordes, on the 29th of May 1453AD.Comment
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This thread is a perfect example of how each of us interprets an already biased history. I as a Greek had to through school and read all kinds of biased books about how bad our neighbors the Turks were. Nowof course where there is smoke there is a fire andf I am not saying that they have not done horrendous acts against some people. Now I've come to the belief that you cannot judge a country solely on its past. If that was the case the Germans would never had a chance, neither would most countries today. Turkey still needs to work on its human rights (funny thing is they are accusing us of not recognizing the muslim minority in Thrace despite the fact that they at one time or another had reps in our Parliamnet, something that would never had happened for Greeks, Armenians, Kurds in Turkey).
Fact is though that they are trying and that anybody deserves a chance. They are a secular gov't with its problems, I grant you that but still a secular country that has made leaps towards becoming a "western country" and they should be praised for that. We achieve nothing by bashing on them unless provoking them is your intention.
Another thing about the muslim world of the past, AFAIK they promoted science and arts and they had cleaner and more sophisticated cities than the ones in the christian world where people in cities were dying of filth and plaques and only clergyman and the nobleman enjoyed the arts. It was the crusades of the Catholic church that brought the same jihad that we are still fighting today. It was the Crusaders that killed and massacred children and women despite the fact that the muslims abstained from such monstrosities. Again this is the vertsion I know and thoroughly believe and it may well be that your version is different and you have every right to believe in that.
So long...
PS: OT I will turn the Turks in my PTW into militirastic/expansionist since in my book that would be the more suitable traits.
PSS: A lot of the arguments in this thread confused the muslim and the muslim world with the Turks and that is not all together right. There were muslims around long before any Turk set foot on the european continent.Excellence can be attained if you Care more than other think is wise, Risk more than others think is safe, Dream more than others think is practical and Expect more than others think is possible.
Ask a Question and you're a fool for 3 minutes; don't ask a question and you're a fool for the rest of your life! Chinese Proverb
Someone is sitting in the shade today because someone planted a tree a long time ago. Warren BuffetComment
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