New Wonder: Hollywood

[trevor]

To those who say that Civ 3 is biased towards the US I say: hey it's a game made by Americans in America, it stands to reason that if the game was made in any other place in the world than it would be slanted towards that country. Oh and I would also like to see a "Hollywood" wonder in the game, and I really like ADG's idea that with every civ that has the tech the nation that has the wonder gets 1 gpt.

Also, out of 34 Wonders (Great and Small) only 7 are based on a American idea or building
Apollo Program
Hoover Dam (BTW, whoever said that they know of the this because it broke is wrong, the Hoover Dam has never broken)
The Manhattan Project
The Pentagon
SETI Program
Strategic Missile Defence
Wall Street

While 13 are European in orign
The Colossus
Copernicus's Observatory
Iron Works
JS Bach's Cathedral
Leonardo's Workshop
Magellan's Voyage
Newton's University
The Oracle
Shakespeare's Theater
Sistine Chapel
Smith's Trading Company
Theory of Evolution
Universal Suffrage

3 are Asian
Forbidden Place
The Great Wall
Sun Tzu's Art of War

4 are Middle Eastern
The Great Library (Now one could argue that this is more Mediterrean than Middle Eastern but Egypt is now in the Middle East)
The Great Lighthouse (same as above)
The Hanging Gardens
The Pyramids (same as above)

The rest (7) aren't confined to any single nation
Battlefield Medicine
Cure for Cancer
Heroic Epic
Intelligence Agency
Longevity
Military Academy
The United Nations (I briefly considered this American but decided against it)

I am prepared to defend this list so fire away!

[Darkworld Ark]

Originally posted by trevor
The United Nations (I briefly considered this American but decided against it)

I'd consider the Civ3 UN a American wonder, since it's located in New York, it's major founder was the US, & the US is the major power behind the UN.

[trevor]

Which is in fact why I was wavering, Darkworld, but I figured that if it wasn't possible without help from other nations than it was in the other catagory.

[DeepO]

Originally posted by trevor
To those who say that Civ 3 is biased towards the US I say: hey it's a game made by Americans in America, it stands to reason that if the game was made in any other place in the world than it would be slanted towards that country.

Strange... I don't think it is an American game... Infogrames is French, isn't it? I wonder why there aren't any French wonders in Civ3 then

I am not saying that the game is biased to America, but I find it suspicous that all the modern wonders are American. Of course there are more European wonders in the game, there are simply more of them irl too. I can't help it that the US as we know it is only 200 years young, and have little great wonders that are world known. Hollywood would make a far better wonder then Hoover, simply because Hoover is not that known... Assouan (or Aswan) is comparable, but better known to non-Americans. Plus, it is more close to the effects of the Hoover dam in game: It provides for half of Egypt's electricity, Hoover is not that important to the US.

Hoover Dam (BTW, whoever said that they know of the this because it broke is wrong, the Hoover Dam has never broken)

I stand corrected. I did a little research, and found out that I was thinking of the South Fork dam, I don't know how I mixed the two. I have to say, a lot of American dams broke at one time or another, I had to wade through loads of 'dam broke' links before I was sure it was the South Fork I remember.

DeepO

[trevor]

Firaxis is an American company based in Maryland (just a couple miles away from DC and me)

[Catt]

Originally posted by DeepO

Indeed. I was already wondering why the dam in the game is the Hoover dam, and not the Assouan (? don't know the English spelling). . . .

I stumbled onto this thread (and this forum, although I know the forum) by accident (trying to get to the Strategy Forum), but now must chime in with some views in response to the post by my good friend DeepO .

[Begin Mild Rant]

The Aswan High Dam may be better known (for the wrong reasons ) than Hoover Dam, but is arguably not nearly as important to the world as a wonder as Hoover Dam is. Hoover Dam was completed in 1935, only 5 years after the project was commissioned, and it was a project as much about providing jobs to out-of-work depression-era American laborers as it was about providing energy / ecological beenfits to the surrounding region. The Hoover Dam project was in fact trumpeted as a wonderful example of the benefits of a "quasi-socialist" approach to governance and great example of comity amid the turbulent tensions between labor and capital at that time, and was used as a frequent poster-child for socialism in Europe (and beyond) in the midst of the great depression of the 1930s. (the debate regarding the benefits / drawbacks of European socialism are better left for another thread ).

The Aswan High Dam, by contrast, took 18 years to construct (although it's reservoir-creating capability is much larger than Hoover Dam, that is largely a function of geography - the engineering marvels needed to create Aswan were not significantly greater than to create Hoover Dam due to the different styles of dam), and was finally finished in 1970 - it was not a "per se" technological wonder at that time, but was a "wonder" due to the scope of the effort). It was eventually constructed with the technical and financial aid of the UN, after years of Soviet assistance proved ineffectual (Soviet assitance, unfortunately, consisted of an awful lot of military advisers to Nasser's forces but not a great deal of true technical expertise or financial assistance - it was, after all, the middle of the Cold War and a time of Arab nationalism, compounded by intense American/Western and Soviet jockeying for influence in the Middle East). What was more of a "wonder" was the Egyptian governement's ability, with the acquiesence of the UN, to forcibly relocate thousands of Nubian villagers and Egyptian peasants whose presence "complicated" the construction of the dam; as well as the ability to relocate ancient Egyptian temples and artifacts (Abu Simbel being the most famous) that would otherwise find themselves either destroyed or under water.

Equally "wonderful" with respect to the Aswan High Dam were the effects on Egyptian society. The precise effects are often fiercely debated - but what is not debatable is that the Aswan dam did succeed in one of its goals - it brought an end to the thousands-of-years- history of the annual flooding of the Nile River Valley and allowed Egypt to escape the potentially catastrophic effects of a drought year or year(s) - truly a wonder in that sense. But the annual flooding also served to bring rich nutrients to the very little farmland available to Egypt, all of which is located along the banks of the Nile and/or in the Nile floodplains north of Cairo. [Warning, Heavily Debated Point:] Rural villages (and their inhabitants) were forced to either import large amounts of fertilizer and artifical irrigation systems to replace the natural fertilizers previously supplied by the flooding (all at high cost), or to emigrate to cities and other industrial areas in search of a livelihood. While Aswan now provides upwards of 50% of Egypt's national electricity consumption, over the last 30 years Egypt has experienced an unprecedented (in the thousands of years of Egyptian civilization) migration of rural citizens from small farming villages into Cairo -- a migration that the central governement has not even come close to handling effectively.

As to culture . . . DeepO is (or should be to all) a recognized expert on culture and culture flipping within the Civ 3 umbrella. But the Civ 3 cultural paradigm doesn't track reality anymore than the Civ 3 combat paradigm does. You won't get any argument from me that European culture (or most non-American cultures, for that matter) have a longer history and stronger long-term influence on present "worldwide culture" than American culture does. However, I would argue that, translated into "Civ 3 Culture," American culture is exerting tremendous culture-flipping-pressure on many other cultures at the moment. Bemoan it as mindless, terrible, useless, destructive, etc. - CNN, MTV, Hollywood, McDonalds, Coca-Cola, etc. represents both economic and (short-term?) cultural influences which are causing a great deal of tension within other cultures -- if the kids like to wear Levi's jeans, drink Coke, eat a hamburger, see an American movie and then dance to American pop artists (perhaps with a widescreen TV playing MTV in the background?), the presence of the Sistine Chapel will not necessarily prevent the European civ from becoming more "americanized" as the populace ages. A cause for concern among many, certainly, but not untrue either.

Modern art forms? Sports, I think, are a decent example. On the arts and letters front - how about the detective story or murder mystery novel / short story? I think a pretty good case can be made for crowning Edgar Allen Poe the creator of the genre - with of course many other Americans and non-Americans following (a good many of them Eurpoean) and contributing greatly. Thespian pursuits - going back to Hollywood, how about the modern motion picture? The television "sitcom"? Both seem to dominate the airwaves, wherever one finds oneself in the world. Musical pursuits - probably the most oft-cited, but how about Jazz? Blues? Or Bluegrass? One could plausibly argue that a combination of the three form the foundation of Rock & Roll and virtually all of Western popular music from the early 50s through the end of the century (and hasn't ended yet ). We might individually agree that some of these examples don't qualify as "art" or "culture" - but we begin to sound like old fuddy-duddies and future cultural judgments are unknown to us today -- the impressionist painters, during their early careers were certainly scorned as "wild youths, looking to make a fast buck, with little appreciation for true 'art' and little talent in any case."

African, Middle Eastern, Sub-Asian Continental and Far Eastern examples of the "modern cultural expression forms" are certainly out there for consumption - but I'd submit that they are having limited success at penetrating an audience beyond their "native citizens," whether those native citizens remain at home or live / travel abroad. Western (which today, for better or worse, means too often American or heavily American-influenced) examples of cultural expression are crossing cultural, ethnic, political and economic borders all the time. Within the Civ 3 paradigm, American culture (again, for better or for worse) is exerting tremendous culutral pressure on other civs right now -- but within the Civ 3 paradigm, a few hundred years doesn't matter much to the game taken as a whole .

[/End Mild Rant]

Catt

[DeepO]

Catt, a nice and well documented reply, I wouldn't call it a rant, not even a mild one So, some responses:

The past days I've read a lot on the Hoover Dam, as I wanted to know what made this 'wonder' so special. I've read that it was used at the time to promote government given jobs to battle the recession, but surely it wasn't the biggest of the projects at that time, nor the most well known. Hoover employed 5000 people, which is nothing compared to the construction of Nazi Germany's highways and factories, which employed millions, and were cultural attraction poles to the rest of Europe. Sure, I don't want a Nazi wonder in the game neither, but this is what made Hitler well liked: he put a stop to the German recession (plus at the same time he created the infrastructure needed for a world war).
But never mind that, Hoover dam is an industrial and ecological wonder in CivIII, so let's focus on those aspects.

When comparing Assouan and Hoover on an industrial level, I vote for Assouan. It has about the same electricity output, but those 2 GigaWatts are relatively much more important in Egypt. A big nuclear plant produces up to 10 GWatt of electricity, so any American nuclear plant would have a greater effect than the Hoover dam has. I think Assouan wins here...

The other effect the Hooverdam has in game is an ecological effect, and even if the real Hoover dam is also a protection against floods, the Nile floodings were both more catastrophical, and better known. Protection against these were really needed, even if it was not always a good thing for the farmers on the banks of the Nile. And I agree that farmers now need to fertilize their land by other means, but this used to be the only advantage they had (although a big one) previously: in some years the flooding washed their soil away, which left them nothing but bare sand. Further, the biggest effect the Assouan dam has is that it raised the water table in much of the Sahara, on a huge scale. It's effects can be felt up to Algeria, 1000s of kilometres away. As a result, the farmable land in Egypt has gone up from 6% to 30% of all land, and even if the quality has gone down, this adds to the yearly farm production, not diminishing it.
Further, another cultural attraction of the Dam is that it provides a water reservoir not only for the Egyptians, but for other countries in the vicinity as well.

What construction is concerned: I agree that in its time, Hoover was a bigger construction feat than Assouan was, the technology was already well known, not in the least because it was the second Assouan dam build there (The first one being constructed between 1898 and 1902, heightened in 1934 and is still working). And, it was even a partly failure: because of all the aluvium that had build up behind the first dam, it's capacity was diminished greatly. The engineers wanted to avoid this, and designed an 'artificial flooding' system, which should take the aluvium with it, and provide for partial flooding of the farm lands in a controlled manner. However, it didn't had the desired effect, and is rarely used now.

But, maybe the main reason why everyone in the world knows the dam is because of the reallocation of Abu Simbel, which was an engineering marvel in itself. That's why it is still known today, and what makes it a great wonder, it's one of those sideline stories that keep being told. Sure, a lot of people were forcedly moved to make room for lake Nasser, and sure, a lot of people died on the creation of Hoover, but who remembers this? Only those that either visit the dams, or are surfing the web to gather some arguments for a thread on a game site. Abu Simbel is recognised by everyone world wide, and as such is a better candidate for a modern wonder

To American culture than... I have to agree that many countries are influenced by what they consider the American way of life. It is very superficial, and is mainly a side effect of the marketing powers of certain big companies, but Coca-Cola, Levi's, McDonalds and American music are indeed world known, and in many countries even considered to be status symbols if you own or use them. Maybe this is a reason why there should be many modern American wonders in Civ, as the cultural pressure is indeed big right now, but diminishing. Nobody still watches CNN, it has turned into a pure propaganda channel with little real value and people are seeing that too. It is good for Americans abroad, and for disaster coverage (e.g. the WTC attacks), but that's about it. MTV the same, with the coming of other music channels, nobody watches MTV anymore in Belgium... their reaction: buy the other channels

I have to agree with you on American music, and even if I don't think that many styles were originally created by pure American people, they did have the biggest commercial and marketing powers, and as such are bringing American music to the world, instead of the other way around. But this is about the same effect as Hollywood films have, so maybe it can be combined into a Hollywood wonder. Or, and this would maybe characterize the situation more, the Edison labs in Menlo park. This is really how I see why American culture is influential in the world: Edison invented the phonograph, and even if this was later improved upon by the French discovery of the grammaphone, Edison became the world largest producer of grammaphones and -records. At that time, they still did the trouble of giving each country a unique reportoire of artists, but it was the first time that American artists were pushed into other countries markets simply because of the coupled selling of records and machines. It was, I think, the beginning of true globalisation of the music market. But even if US companies dominate the world market (apart from Bertellsman), it is not a pure American thing, for instance which one of the two has the biggest audience: the MTV music awards, or the Eurovision song contest?

Sports: If there is one thing were I think that America has nowhere near a cultural lead, it has to be sport. Sure, they are present and well represented in many disciplines, but the things that they are real good in (baseball, American football and basketbal) are only played by Americans, so no wonder they are best in it. Those sports are niche sports here, while the whole world watches soccer...

American literature: maybe Edgar Allan Poe is the king of mystery in the US, but the rest of the world still crowns Agatha Christie And Sir Arthur Canon Doyle's Sherlock Holmes is no stranger to people either, while I'm having a hard time remembering Poe's writings. But I am a bad reference when comparing literature, I don't find the time anymore to read a lot of books. But another one maybe are the real horros tales, that is indeed American 'culture'.

And yes, sitcoms may be another big cultural influence, but opposed to that are the Australian soaps, and the European game shows. The last really global TV phenomena, Big Brother, was Dutch. American movies are indeed global, and quite a few tv shows (Star trek, anyone? Or the Simpsons?) are global as well, but other countries also provide a lot of shows and ideas. In the US, most of these things are reworked, because US citizens don't want to have a (British) English speaking actor, and certainly not a dubbed French actor, I think that there is no clear global leader.

While we're at it, why don't we look at comics / graphic novels / manga? As I'm passionate about this domain, it is very easy for me to argue about this culture, and I consider the sequential art a truely global phenomena. The problem here is that there are very few global things, Americans go for the superheroes in comics, Europeans for more realistical graphic novels, and the Asians for the action rich Mangas. There is no way that comics will take over the European market, as our cultural heritage dictates that graphics have to be more or less realistic, we use a completely other image language than the US artists. The other way around is more likely, but also not realistic, the US will not adopt the European style, even if the only 2 worldwide artists were European (the Belgian Hergé with TinTin, and the French Moebius with lots of projects). Sure, everybody knows about Superman and Spiderman, but ask any European who Stan Lee is, and watch the results. No, both sides will probably evolve more to a manga like style, if not keeping the original style. One of the examples where American (economic) cultural pressure is not working at all.

Just one final point: you submit that Middle Eastern culture is not penetrating other cultures, but I have one big example for you: Islam. It is the fastest growing religion in the world in the past 50 years, and even if in the US it is not growing that rapidly, it surely is in Asia and Africa. Like it or not, but I consider it the biggest cultural pressure happening today, much more then all the American movies and multinationals together... The only region in which the growth is relatively slow is in Europe, because in general religion is on the decline here, so we don't have interest in changing to another one either. The problem with this in Civ terms is that there is not one clear wonder associated with it, and Islam has bad connotations because of all the latest Al Quaida problems, which might create controversy in the US market. But if there is one modern added wonder religion wise, it should be Islamic in nature.

DeepO

[XarXo]

Just for curious people:

Comic was born in the medieval european/chinese classical puppet theater, by the idea of creating characters that could be controlled by only one or two persons. It started (almost in Europe) as moral/ethic stories represented by "passages" with some colorful drawings.

But puppets are a lot older, they're based in dolls, that born in the late neolithic. Created to the young teens when mom gone to the crops and dad to hunt (we have to remember that in paleolithic women always stayed with children, including teenagers and youngers). Another form of dolls are the ones used in religious acts (classic mediterranean/ancient sahara Great Mama Earth->Gea->Hera->Maria->... A minor form is the classic lady in governments, represented by a queen or the wife_of/the prime minister).

So, speak of American culture is a bit stupid, we can speak of mediterranean/nordic culture, that's all.

About manga, Osamu Tezuka copied the American comic system (but with japanese drama), and posteriorly Disney copied Osamu Tezuka (Lion King)

Speak of culture in these globalized times is a difficult thing!!!

[des-esseintes]

Man, I wish I could word myself like you Catt

If I had any doubts about my own arguments they would be gone now

[Catt]

I knew I would get a good response from you, DeepO.

Hoover was by no means the largest project in the 30's - it wasn't even the largest project in the United States. But if I remember correctly (from mostly casual reading), Hoover Dam was very aggressively pushed (propagandized) by both the American government and by European politicians as a sterling example of the positive potential of government direction of portions of a nation's economy. Putting aside for a moment whether there were better examples of industrial feats or even public works projects from anywhere in the world around that time, Hoover, rightly or wrongly, was the subject of a great deal of propaganda making it seem to be such a magnificent undertaking - that is why, perhaps, one might argue in its favor as a wonder.

The debate over the effects of the Aswan High Dam on Egyptian culture / political / industrial / agricultural institutions is not one that anyone can "win." It remains today (AFAIK) a hotly debated topic within Egypt (at least it remained hotly-debated in the early 1990s, and the socio-economic conditions giving rise to the debate seemed to have worsened rather abated). I agree with the facts you cite regarding arable land, water table effects, etc. (as I am pretty sure my chosen search engine directed me to some of the same pages as yours did when I needed to refresh my long ago memories ) -- but the thrust of my argument is that the dam itself - while held by the Egyptian people as a symbol of pride, accomplishment and achievement, is not exactly looked upon as a "wonder" providing tremendous benefits to society as a whole - by some it is, yes; by a significant number of others, however, no. (‘Course, I acknowledge that the Egyptian slaves who built the Pyramids might not have had all that many warm, fuzzy feelings about that great wonder, either ).

I don't disagree with you at all about Abu Simbel. It is truly breath-taking, and perhaps even more breathtaking is the engineering effort undertaken to relocate it in connection with the dam's construction. No disagreements regarding Abu Simbel, except that I'd argue that Abu Simbel should rightly be considered on its own rather than lumping is "wondrousness" in with the Aswan High Dam. And I would probably favor a Petra (Jordan) great wonder as more deserving than Abu Simbel standing on its own.

The Aswan High Dam itself is, how shall I say . . . something far less than awe-inspiring. Neither a terribly significant technological challenge nor even an impressive sight - it just doesn't stand up to the "wonder" test for me. The Colossus (were we able to experience it) may not have been a technological feat (hey, it's just a big statue ), but to stand in its presence must have inspired awe. Standing atop Hoover Dam, and viewing Hoover Dam from nearby is awe-inspiring. Those in search of awe at Aswan are better off going to Abu Simbel, and then moving downriver to Luxor -- the Aswan High Dam should be patrolled by Egyptians who shuffle visitors away saying "Move along folks, nothing to see here . . ."

I earlier sought to "put aside" the discussion of whether Hoover is truly "wondrous" or had a great marketing (propaganda) effort behind it. I'll take up that discussion now with respect to your observations on American culture or way of life. I wouldn't dream of disagreeing with you that the prevalence American consumer items like Coca-Cola, Levi's, McDonald's etc. around the world is largely the result of the marketing powers of certain big companies. And I wouldn't dream of disagreeing that Hollywood's marketing and distribution powers with respect to film, broadcast media, and music is a major influence on what many in the world watch and listen to. But you are acknowledging what I think is a critical point in the discussion - cultural and economic power are inextricably linked. The access to wealth, and the willingness to spend that wealth to promote (or market, or propagandize, depending on your view ) has always been one of the driving forces of cultural expansion / assimilation. The Roman Catholic Church aggressively marketed Catholicism in Europe and indeed around the world and it often did so by spending large sums of money to construct and staff awe-inspiring churches (or chapels or cathedrals, depending on your views ). The Catholic Church is but one example of course, and an example from predominantly Western culture -- with respect to Islam, I’d point to the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem and the Blue Mosque in Istanbul (I can’t visit Mecca and Medina as I am not Muslim) – my point is that economic vitality and the willingness to spend wealth promoting ideas and values has always played an important role in the shaping of culture. Cultural traditions, I would argue, arise largely from need (dealing with one’s circumstances) and from marketing / proselytizing by those with a vested interest in the spread of whatever it is being promoted!

On sports – I didn’t spend a lot of time in my original post discussing sports. All I would say about modern sports vis-à-vis their cultural implications is that, IMHO nowhere else in the world has a society elevated the notion of sport to such a central role in daily life. The professionalization of sport, of all different stripes, is rife throughout America – we may never succeed at exporting some of the quirkier sports beyond our shores, but the amount of leisure time and disposable income that Americans are willing to devote to sport (watching, rather than playing, sadly ) is either very interesting (from a sociological point of view), or downright bizarre (from a casual observer point of view). Oh, and we will win the World Cup, at or before either the 2022 or 2026 matches, I predict .

I doubt Poe is considered the king of mystery by anyone – but I think many would agree that he gave birth to the modern mystery novel / story. Doyle (and even Christie ) may in fact be much more widely read and may be considered better writers, too, but my point was that Poe essentially gave birth to the genre (as one might argue Boswell did for the autobiography and biography). Probably not my finest argument since I’d agree that, regardless of the “first” or acknowledged “inventor” of a form of art, the culture points should go to that culture which produces the higher-regarded volume of work over time. (But note that this concept cuts pretty hard against you point re: Edison and the French discovery of the gramophone).

I’ll leave the comics / graphic novels / manga discussion alone – completely out of my element and I yield to any conclusion you’d like to make in that regard .

Finally, Middle Eastern culture versus Islam. Islam is certainly the fastest growing religion in the world, and in many societies Islam and “culture” have become so interlinked that there may seem to be hardly a difference. But I could not for the life of me try and define or circumscribe an “Islamic culture.” Indonesian culture, Turkish culture, and Saudi culture would seem to me to be wildly different things – heck, Egyptian culture is wildly different than Saudi / Gulf State cultures (think Arabian Bedouin versus Nile delta farmer) and these two cultures find their home in the same Arab and Middle Eastern “culture group” in addition to sharing the strong influence of Islam. The interweaving of Islamic traditions and practices with existing local cultural norms has produced a mish-mash of related but distinct cultures, just like, IMHO, the interweaving of Judeo-Christian traditions and practices with existing local cultural norms produced a mish-mash of related but distinct cultures in the West. This mish-mash in the West, IMHO, is becoming more homogenized due in part to the declining influence of a powerful cultural modifier like religion relative to the increasing influence of powerful cultural modifiers like global economic and communications abilities. I think it is precisely because Islam is still growing with vitality that it is hard to identify a cultural icon or two for the Civ 3 paradigm – I think it’s pretty easy to identify Sistine Chapel as a cultural wonder – I would speculate that most Westerner’s would view this as pure “art” as opposed to religious iconography – identifying the Dome of the Rock as an “artistic wonder” is a far more challenging endeavor. So, an Islamic religious wonder – by all means; an Islamic cultural wonder – not yet. And I would stand by my statement that, like it or not, Western culture is taking root in non-Western societies, but non-Western culture is having much greater trouble taking root outside the somewhat more limited confines of its own homeland and its own emigrant populations abroad. It’s got an awful lot to do with that whole marketing / propaganda point we were discussing rather than inherent superioirty or inferiority of one or the other.

And finally, with respect to one specific comment you made:

. . . even if I don't think that many styles were originally created by pure American people . . .

One of the beauties of American culture is that citizenship (and frankly, mere residence to some extent) confers on anyone the designation of a "pure American" unless the individual chooses to associate himself with another culture or affirmatively asserts his output as the product of a non-American cultural norm -- the newly sworn-in American citizen is as pure an American as a citizen born here whose ancestral roots can be traced back to the Mayflower. IMHO, this "borg-ish" willingness to assimiliate and assume as its own other cultural norms is one factor that makes "American" culture a little bit unnerving to other cultures.

Originally posted by des-esseintes
Man, I wish I could word myself like you Catt

Keep in mind that English is my native language and it is probabnly DeepO's fourth or fifth?

Catt

[Spiffor]

About Hollywood :
I think it deserves to be in the game, as it shows the American cultural dominance of the time. It has been the greatest propaganda powerhouse ever made on Earth, which has an incredible effect outside its homeland (unlike other propaganda machines)

I don't think it should get Eiffel Tower's effect : if we want Eiffel Tower, we could implement it into the game, plain and simple, industrious and commercial, to please the French public, and all non-French who simply love ind/com. Eiffel Tower should have a good cultural ouput (4-6 cultures per turn : after all, it has became the very symbol of France abroad, in only 1 century of existence)

Hollywood hould produce culture, agressively. My suggestion is that it modifies the flipping equation in your favor.
For example, the basic elements before a culture flip happens is the number of squares you control inside the foreign city's radius, and the number of people your nationality in the foreign city. Maybe hollywood could double these elements (i.e, each American citizen in that Persian city now counts as 2 Americans).
Also, it should make much culture in the city that built it (as much as Shakespeare's or so). This more culture automatically makes AI civs mor tolerant towards you.
Another possibility is that it makes spies' propaganda missions affordable at last, but I fear it would be overpowered if a player focuses on having money, and buys several cities per turn.

What do you think ?

[XarXo]

Originally posted by Spiffor
About Hollywood :
I think it deserves to be in the game, as it shows the American cultural dominance of the time. It has been the greatest propaganda powerhouse ever made on Earth, which has an incredible effect outside its homeland (unlike other propaganda machines)

I don't think it should get Eiffel Tower's effect : if we want Eiffel Tower, we could implement it into the game, plain and simple, industrious and commercial, to please the French public, and all non-French who simply love ind/com. Eiffel Tower should have a good cultural ouput (4-6 cultures per turn : after all, it has became the very symbol of France abroad, in only 1 century of existence)

Hollywood hould produce culture, agressively. My suggestion is that it modifies the flipping equation in your favor.
For example, the basic elements before a culture flip happens is the number of squares you control inside the foreign city's radius, and the number of people your nationality in the foreign city. Maybe hollywood could double these elements (i.e, each American citizen in that Persian city now counts as 2 Americans).
Also, it should make much culture in the city that built it (as much as Shakespeare's or so). This more culture automatically makes AI civs mor tolerant towards you.
Another possibility is that it makes spies' propaganda missions affordable at last, but I fear it would be overpowered if a player focuses on having money, and buys several cities per turn.

What do you think ?

Sorry man, the biggest one is the Vatican City. The maximum expression of their triumph is that is an independent state!!

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Catt
But if I remember correctly (from mostly casual reading), Hoover Dam was very aggressively pushed (propagandized) by both the American government and by European politicians as a sterling example of the positive potential of government direction of portions of a nation's economy. (. . .) that is why, perhaps, one might argue in its favor as a wonder.

I'd doubt it it was used as an European propaganda example, even in Belgium there were better examples than that. But I take your point why it deserves to be a wonder. However one question: sure it was propagandized, but did it actually accomplish something? AFAIK, most American anti-recession projects were not state sponsored, which partially lead to the recesion being hardest on the US citizens, and not so on the European side (This also had to do with a harsh winter, IIRC, and a failed harvest in 1930(?) )

The debate over the effects of the Aswan High Dam on Egyptian culture / political / industrial / agricultural institutions is not one that anyone can "win." (. . .) (?Course, I acknowledge that the Egyptian slaves who built the Pyramids might not have had all that many warm, fuzzy feelings about that great wonder, either ).

I agree, and this is not the first time we land at this point in a debate, that it is a matter of opinion, of which no-one can convince the other that he is wrong. Primarily I use the same argument as you do with the Hoover dam to 'proof' that the Assouan dam is the greater wonder of the too: the propaganda surrounding it made it the best known of the two. Where the battling of recession was what did it for Hoover, Abu Simbel made the Assouan great, even if it is very indirectly. Further, Abu Simbel is not the most beatyful of Egypts ancient treasures, nor was it in any way the most impressive, if it wasn't moved nobody would bother to visit it. I agree completely that, the view from the dam wouldn't be that great as from the top of Hoover, even if I never visited any of the two.

But the Egyptian slaves being not warmed of what they accomplished with the Pyramids is something I do contest vigirously. It is well established lately that they weren't slaves at all, but highly respected craftsmen in Egyptian society. Archeological excavations of the past 20 years have discovered the few villages that provided the craftsmen for centuries, in which pyramid builder was an occupation taught from father to son. It was an honor to be allowed to build a pyramid, and I'm quite sure that they felt accomplished once a pyramid was completed. Some of the chieftains of those villages are even given honory graves in the immediate vicinity of the pyramids, something that was normally only reserved for priests and members of the court, these weren't slaves at all.

The Colossus (were we able to experience it) may not have been a technological feat (hey, it's just a big statue ), but to stand in its presence must have inspired awe.

Just a big statue? It was about the same size of the statue of liberty, completely made of bronze, but only build some 2000 years before... I'd say it is the biggest technological feat of the ancient wonders. Too bad we can't see it anymore, it surely would make me speachless.

But you are acknowledging what I think is a critical point in the discussion - cultural and economic power are inextricably linked. The access to wealth, and the willingness to spend that wealth to promote (or market, or propagandize, depending on your view ) has always been one of the driving forces of cultural expansion / assimilation.

I agree, I was indeed bending my opinion towards the cultural influence of the US in modern times. But still I find it unfair that all of Civ's modern wonders are either American or fictive, and even if I think Hollywood would be a good wonder, it is my opinion that the US cultural influence might be the biggest of all countries the past 50 years, but that doesn't mean it is the only cultural influence. Hence my request for some other wonders too in Civ III.

The Roman Catholic Church aggressively marketed Catholicism in Europe and indeed around the world and it often did so by spending large sums of money to construct and staff awe-inspiring churches (or chapels or cathedrals, depending on your views ).

It is even harder then that. Is it Arrian who uses the quote of ' The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omlette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omlettehood.'? The Catholical Church used this trick a lot in the medeival times, most of their churches are donated by nobles, rich merchants or cities. The only exceptions are the churches in Vatican city, and only because the Pope was at the same time the secular ruler there.

. . . with respect to Islam, I?d point to the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem and the Blue Mosque in Istanbul (I can?t visit Mecca and Medina as I am not Muslim) ? my point is that economic vitality and the willingness to spend wealth promoting ideas and values has always played an important role in the shaping of culture. Cultural traditions, I would argue, arise largely from need (dealing with one?s circumstances) and from marketing / proselytizing by those with a vested interest in the spread of whatever it is being promoted!

I agree in part, but not completely. I think that Mecca, would make the best Islamic wonder (Well, actually the stone in the middle of the square would, but I forgot its name ), but I was looking for a modern wonder like building, not a medeival one. Cultural tradition indeed arise largely from need, and this, I think, is one of the biggest reasons for the rise of the Islam: one of its main attractions is the inherit social nature of the religion. People are supposed to share whatever they can miss, and as a group become wealthy, not as individuals. Further, it is in large based on self-development, another thing that has gone out of fashion in the Catholic Church. These two things are what attracts millions of people to the religion, and you see the biggest growth in regions with poverty (think Indonesia, or Africa).

Of course this has nothing to do with extremists, they have other reasons going for them. Here propaganda is maybe more dominant then need.

Oh, and we will win the World Cup, at or before either the 2022 or 2026 matches, I predict .

This could be true... but you can't compare apples with pears. The only reason why the US soccer team did so well the last world cup is because as the players do not have to play in tournament, they can train together for the better part of the year. Therefore, even if they in themselves are not the best players, the group is far better used to each other as opposed to countries in which players are rivals for the whole year, and team up for less then 3 weeks of training before international matches. But, I couldn't care less if they would win or not, soccer is not my kind of game, and after I had my moto accident and as a result got my right arm (partly) paralysed I lost all interest in sports... I'm forced to be lazy, and also don't like to watch it anymore either. But that said, I did chuckle a little when Belgium stranded higher then the US in the world cup

. . . Probably not my finest argument since I?d agree that, regardless of the ?first? or acknowledged ?inventor? of a form of art, the culture points should go to that culture which produces the higher-regarded volume of work over time. (But note that this concept cuts pretty hard against you point re: Edison and the French discovery of the gramophone).

I know, this is exactly why I mentioned it. You were proving my point with Poe, while I realized that the example of Edison made music an American business. BTW, sorry to have called it grammaphone, that is the German spelling... in Dutch it is written with a single 'm' and an 'o' as well

I think it is precisely because Islam is still growing with vitality that it is hard to identify a cultural icon or two for the Civ 3 paradigm ? I think it?s pretty easy to identify Sistine Chapel as a cultural wonder ? I would speculate that most Westerner?s would view this as pure ?art? as opposed to religious iconography ? identifying the Dome of the Rock as an ?artistic wonder? is a far more challenging endeavor. So, an Islamic religious wonder ? by all means; an Islamic cultural wonder ? not yet. And I would stand by my statement that, like it or not, Western culture is taking root in non-Western societies, but non-Western culture is having much greater trouble taking root outside the somewhat more limited confines of its own homeland and its own emigrant populations abroad.

Maybe... I take your point on an Islamic cultural wonder, but perhaps this is also because we simply don't know that much of Islamic culture as a pure art form. The big mosques have always been an art expression on top of their religious function, and Arab craftsmenship is even now at least equal to Western art. The carvings and paintings are of the same quality, and there were certain points in time in which it was far superior to Western, Christian art. Further, their poetry, dances and music have always been highly regarded, and have a far fetched cultural reach, even if we don't understand one thing of what they're all about. This is one of the reasons why you can speak of an Arab world, singers from Egypt are widely admired in the whole Arab world, whether the people listening are Bedouin, oil sjeiks (sp?), farmers or whatever. But I agree, this is not the main reason why people convert to the Islam.

About the Sistine Chapel: I don't think it is that much of a wonder either, even if I fully admire Michelangelo's genius at work. But in itself it may not be that great a wonder, the biggest reason it is a Civ Wonder is because it is one of the best examples of what renaissance accomplished in Italy in the 14th and 15th century. It gave birth to a whole other way of thinking, not because of this one example, but because of the general society change. That's why I think that the effect of added happiness is very well done, that was (one of) the effects irl too. The Sistine Chapel can hardly be called religious iconography, if you see the whole painting and all the ornaments (instead of the famous 'God touching adam with the breath of life'), you see that it was more a glorification of human, and even pimarily male anatomy. The amount of nudeness is staggering, and the sexy poses really do not belong in a church. But Michelangelo was rumoured to be gay, and this clearly shows from the art. That it was possible in that period to have such controversial pictures in the private church of the pope (Pius II ?) is what really defines the level of growth achieved in the renaissance

Keep in mind that English is my native language and it is probabnly DeepO's fourth or fifth?

Well, it is my third language (of 4, maybe 5 if you count understanding but not speaking too), but that doesn't change the fact that you are a born debater, better then I would consider myself

DeepO

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by XarXo


Sorry man, the biggest one is the Vatican City. The maximum expression of their triumph is that is an independent state!!

Mmmh, right. But Hollywood is pretty different in nature : unlike a religious undertaking, Hollywood promotes a wordly and homogenous way of life, which is clearly bound to a location and to a country.

The only location bearings in the christian Bible (which the Vatican promotes) are far away from the Vatican itelf (Middle East). And reading the Bible isn't intended to make you want becoming more Israeli/Palestinian. It's intended to make you want being christian, whatever the worldly ruler is above you.

OTOH, all Hollywood movies are located in the US, except if they have a very good reason not to take place there. They show the Amrican way of life, and tend to show the greatness of America (without looking at ludicrous examples such as Independance Day, you'll notice the good character almost always wins in an American movie, against all odds)

In sum the Vatican might make want you to belong to the christian religion. Hollywood might make want you to belong to the American country. That's why I think it's better as a culture-flip whore than the Vatican.

[des-esseintes]

Another effect that is possible, and not overpowering, would be to have all cities gain 10 culture per turn UNTIL they reach culture 100.