What the civ list should be

[Indignator]

-Spanish (European)
-Mongols (Asian)
I don't think there is much disagreement here.

-Incas (American)
How the Aztecs have always made it before the Incas will always astound me.

-Turks (Middle Eastern)
The importance of the Turks on Europe and the Middle East cannot be denied.

-Mali or Ethiopians (New African culture)
There needs to be at least one more African, non-Mediterranean civ.

-Polish, Ukrainians or Hungarians (European)
The level with which Eastern Europe is being ignored is not even funny. Hey, we got Russia, so the rest doesn't matter. Well, we got China and Japan, so why should we add Korea?

These should be included. The remaining two spots I'm not very solid about. Here are possibilities, with pros and cons.

-Koreans
Many people support this civ. I know nothing about Asian history, so I can't say how important the Koreans were in history.

-Arabs
The Arabs were a very important civilization in their time, wouldn't mind if they were included.

-Hebrew
I'm a little confused about this. At what time in history was the Hebrew civilization anything more than a small nation on the coast of the Mediterranean?

-Vikings
I would like to see the Vikings, just because I like them. However it would add yet another civ to the already full European culture.

-Carthage
Ugh, I don't know how this civ made it to Civ II. Sure it was an important city in ancient times, but why include it while there are so many much more interesting civs? On the other hand it would provide another Greco-Roman civ.

-Celts
Yay, another European civ. No, I think the Vikings and Eastern Europe are much better candidates. Besides, the English are already here, so if the Celts make it, so should the Scottish the Irish.

-Portuguese
I added them here, because just like the Eastern Europe, they too are ignored on a scandalous basis.

Well, these are my two cents. Tell me what you think.

[Imp. Montezuma]

-Vikings
Ugh, I don't know how this civ made it to Civ II. Sure it was an important civ in medieval times, but why include it while there are so many much more interesting civs? On the other hand it would provide another European civ.

[Iron Chancellor]

It has more to do with simplicity and keeping it from being overwhelming like in the Call To Power games. No Offense to anyone of these nationalities, but do we really need a:
Nigerian
Nicaraguan
Brazilian
etc. etc.

[Sirotnikov]

At what time in history was the Hebrew civilization anything more than a small nation on the coast of the Mediterranean?

Considering the fact that the Hebrews and their culture and religion had a huge effect on the western civilization, I'm surprised you ask.

Christianity grew out of Judaism.

Most of the western morals (and later laws) grew out of the Bible.

[Indignator]

Agree, but again, when were the Hebrews anything more than a small nation on the Mediterranean??? You make a valid point, but you didn't answer the quesion.

[Panag]

Originally posted by Indignator
Agree, but again, when were the Hebrews anything more than a small nation on the Mediterranean??? You make a valid point, but you didn't answer the quesion.

hi ,

the fact that in the "old" days where involved with more then half the trade in the ancient world would do , ...

Small , yes and no , for those days average , with a big influence , ....

small , what is the definition of small , .....
the Iroquios where smaller , .....

have a nice day

[Dinner]

The Celts certainly should be included; if you think that Celts only includes the Scots & the Irish then please read the following thread. http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=51564

[Indignator]

Originally posted by panag
the fact that in the "old" days where involved with more then half the trade in the ancient world would do , ...

I'll have to take your word for it, though that was probably true for only a selected period of time (several hundred years, as opposed to the thousands of years that compromise the ancient era)

Small , yes and no , for those days average , with a big influence , ....

small , what is the definition of small , .....
the Iroquios where smaller , .....

The Persian, Alexander's and Roman Empires were "big," though they came after the Hebrews' peak (I think). And also, the Iroquios are considered to represent all the Native North Americans - the real Iroquios had no horses (UU = mounted warrior).

In any case, it really comes down to a matter of personal preference. I'm just saying that I would rather see the Arabs and Vikings than the Hebrew.

[JtheJackal]

Re: What the civ list should be

Originally posted by Indignator

-Incas (American)
How the Aztecs have always made it before the Incas will always astound me.

The Aztec's are a way more major civ than the Incan's ever were.

[Mikhail]

No, I DON'T think the Celts should be included (at least, instead of the Gauls) because it's way too vauge. Celtic tribes, in many cases, were very different from each other. Including the celts would be like including a 'European' civ, or 'Asian' civ. Gauls are a better choice, though I'd much rather have Irish, personally. Even if they had less than an impact on the world, I think it would be more fun to play as them.

About the Hebrew: If you're basing their inclusion solely on their monotheist religion, remember that, while Christianity did grow out of Judaism (Islam grew out of it as well), It was Byzantium that's responsible for spreading Christianity throughout the western world. And yet, Byzantium isn't even up for discussion (and no, they're not the same as Rome. They kind of had 1000 years after the Roman Empire fell to develop their own culture)

As for trade and influence, yes, the Hebrews had that too. As did Byzantium and a dozen other civilizations not included.

But Indignator's right. It all comes down to personal preference. and if Firaxis were going to include 16 civs, then yes, they should be included. But there are several, IMO, more important civs to take up the few unconfirmed slots.

As for the Eastern Europe civ suggested, it ought to be Poland. the Ukraine is more or less included with Russia (Kiev is in the Russian city list as well, I believe. My Civ3 is so modded, I have no idea). But at least Eastern Europe HAS Russia. South East Asia has nothing. Thailand/Siam should take priority over any other European civ.

[GeneralTacticus]

-Hebrew
I'm a little confused about this. At what time in history was the Hebrew civilization anything more than a small nation on the coast of the Mediterranean?

At what time were the Babylonians anything more than a small empire in Mesopotamia? At what time were the Aztecs more than a small empire in Central America? At what time (other than WW2) were the Japanese anything more than a small empire on the Japanese islands (and later Korea)?

[Indignator]

At what time were the Babylonians anything more than a small empire in Mesopotamia?

The Babylonians represent all of the empires of the Fertile Crescent, including the Assyrians and such. At their respective times they were one of the greatest nations in the world.

At what time were the Aztecs more than a small empire in Central America?

They weren't small. At the time of Montezuma the Aztec empire had over 10 million inhabitants, which is more than present day Izrael, let alone ancient.

At what time (other than WW2) were the Japanese anything more than a small empire on the Japanese islands (and later Korea)?

You just answered your own question - during WW2 and after.

[Dinner]

Having a Celtic civ is no more of an abstract then having a Viking civ or an Iroquis "that represents all native Americans" civ. We should make sure that we use the same standards on everyone and not try to hold some to higher standards then others.

It light of this I can say, yes, we should have a Celtic civ and not a Gaulic civ. BTW Celts were one ethnic and linguistic group (though they did have two main subgroups) so it would NOT be like having an Asian or European civ.

[GeneralTacticus]

The Babylonians represent all of the empires of the Fertile Crescent, including the Assyrians and such. At their respective times they were one of the greatest nations in the world.

In it's day Israel was just as big.

They weren't small. At the time of Montezuma the Aztec empire had over 10 million inhabitants, which is more than present day Izrael, let alone ancient.

Your point? I'll have to check the exact boundaries, but I was talking about territory, not population.

You just answered your own question - during WW2 and after.

I haven't seen anyone who thinks that Japan should be in solely because of what they conquered in WW2.

[kring]

With the new editor in the new patch, you will be able to add additional civs, up to 31 or 32 total to choose from.

You will be able to add whatever civs you like; currently you can change any you don't like. There are enough good civs to choose from here and at CFC to replace. If you have the time, you can make your own.