4th MP tournament (or should that be 2nd?)

[Gramphos]

I sure had the best start, but still have to few MP games on my neck. 8this was my second Civ3 MP game) I've learnt a few things this time as well.

Like you sayd I should have used the first 30 turns more effectivly, and founded at least three cities on the way down to the iron and the horse.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon
I'm not sure you'd call that game's map "good fortune" for me - I had a huge jungle east and west, plains north - and Babylon and Arabia both immediately in my face. Gram had a large area with a small bottleneck, and a huge peninsula south of him. Respectfully, the starting conditions were such that he should have triumphed - he was outplayed. In your game more aggressive early expansion to the south and sentries would've allowed you to respond more quickly to my actions and secure the resources I was working to deny you. You may have had jungle north, but you had lovely land south. There's a lot more to MP than I think is being appreciated, particularly in the tactics department - it was definitely tactics and not building that won me the game against Gramphos.

My first start - the unplayable - was 10 tiles of grass (no rivers) and 5 of tundra in my immediate area at the extreme southern end of a peninsula - north was a 6 deep 3 wide marsh, with the mayan AI immediately on the other side of the marsh and no area for me to "Sneak by" in - his capital radius straddled the exit to the marsh entirely.

Yes. I am not trying to minimise the gap in MP experience. Not at all. I certainly could have done better, in many departments.

That start sounds brutal. Gramphos was good to agree to restart.

[notyoueither]

So, as of now F-P has completed 2 games with one in progress against sabrewolf.

Gramphos has completed 2 games.

sabrewolf has completed 1 game with 1 in progress against F-P.

I have completed 1 game.

Snotty is having a hard time getting his matches in, which is really too bad as he should be the odds on favorite to give F-P a run for the money given his experience. I hope we hear from him soon.

[notyoueither]

Ruling

I think I made a mistake when F-P asked me a question regarding the 30 turn rule in our match.

He asked if opponents had to stay out of each others cultural territory during the 30 turns of peace. I said no, so his scouts proceded to park themselves on hills inside my borders. I think this was a mistake (which I don't mind since I was the one effected).

Allowing access to the territory of the opponent while the opponent cannot attack the intruder is a bit one-sided. A scout could be parked on a resource and stay there until turn 30, or could park on a road and interfere with movement/development.

I think that the 30 turn rule should mean that units must stay out of opponents cultural territory, or at the very least not end a turn within the borders (dipping in and out with scouts for mapping would be OK).

What do you all think?

[Gramphos]

seems like a good change, however I think that we should allow one turn in and one turn to leave the territory, with the exception that once 30 turns have passed all units must leave the territory before you may declare war. That way you are able to pass a territory for exploring on the other side, and by making it so that you can't place a stack inside the borders just wait for turn 30.

[sabrewolf]

i agree with the not-entering-rule.

about restarts: my start against F-P wasn't that great. end of a southern peninsula, to the left a mountain range, to the north the egyptions. river was 5-6 tiles away. iron and horses about 10-12 in another direction.
so my question: when can one ask for a restart?


maybe it would be worth it, that some neutral person generates some maps and passes on the seed.
or create an ACS MP mod with doubling (tripling) of resource rates?

concerning my match against F-P: i herewith surrender, because
a) it's only a matter of time, until he crushes me, simply because he's better
b) no iron in reach --> no UU buildable
c) river too far away for my 2-3 innermost cities --> wasted agricultural trait
d) egypt allied with him
e) to reduce playing time

so, congrats F-P

[Fried-Psitalon]

While I do agree with "Stay out of borders" I'm very much not in favor of increasing resource rates in a mod; resource denial (and choosing a UU which is not heavily resource dependent or not at all resource dependent) is part of Civ - one of the strengths of the jag, the chasqui, and the impi is that they are good at keeping other civs AWAY from needed resources. Persia, the Celts, the Iroquois *should* have to work to get their hands on what they need, because they are devastating when they do.

Respectfully, I think the problem is more that the SP community puts less immediate energy into securing resources than they should. The "resource denial" tactics I have been using are specifically tailored on that bet. To me, even the current resource amounts seem exorbitant; in a "ladder style" 1v1 with no AI's, there are only two iron and two horses on the entire map - having 4 or 5 of each due to the AI's presence seems like a wild wonderland!

Regarding restarts - I actually offered to resign the match against Gramphos rather than restart, and he graciously offered to restart; I hadn't brought that up at all. I think the option of restarting should be left to the other player in the game.

[sabrewolf]

i read from MP-beta testers that they are asking to have more resources in MP whilst keeping SP resource rates down.

i know that resource denying is a method of playing. but even if you havn't got a ancient UU... iron is vital as soon as you enter the medieval ages. spearmen are outdated as soon as attack-units with 4 come out (eg. longbowmen, which don't need resources).

i just think that the map generator has too much influence if in one game you're 3 tiles away from the iron source and in the other you've got to build a 15tile mountain-hill-road to the distant unproductive city on the other side of you continent.

if the map generator would at least make starting locations fair, eg. every player gets at least three 2-food tiles (like grassland), 2 luxuries in nearer vicinity and early resources approx. the same far from everyone... then i'd like it.

sorry about my accusation about the restart.
but it's a pity you didn't play the game out. gramphos' better starting location vs. your immense MP experience... it could have turned out interesting (like playing chess against an oponent and starting without a tower ).

[sabrewolf]

here the current standings:
feel free to use my html-code and "pretty it up". i didn't use any style sheets.

1st   \ 2nd	fried-psitalon	notyoueither	gramphos	sabrewolf	snotty	standings
fried-psitalon		1-0	1-0	1-0		3-0
notyoueither	0-1					0-1
gramphos	0-1			0-1		0-2
sabrewolf	0-1		1-0			1-1
snotty						0-0
	completed		pending
	in progress		no match

[sabrewolf]

i'd like to play at least one game this coming weekend.
nye or snotty: are you around either saturday or sunday?
i'm not yet sure which day, but at least one of my afternoons (north american mornings) and probably an evening (NA afternoon)...

[notyoueither]

Good, sabrewolf. I would like to meet with you on whichever day you are free. The games across the pond need to take priority.

If Snotty is available, it would be prefereable for him to get his game in with F-P.

I am free both days, but tend not be available til about 9pm your time. I can try for a bit earlier.

However, if you and Snotty can get a game in in your morning, that would be great.

I will send PMs for the coming weekend in the next couple of days.

[sabrewolf]

it just turned out that sunday is completely impossible.

my current availability is saturday from approx 10:00 to 16:00 UCT.
nye: if you get up fairly early, we could squeeze in the game. if not, i'll try to get a match against (and thereby my ass kicked by) snotty

[notyoueither]

well, 10am gmt is 3am my time. I am usually just going to bed by that time. I doubt I'd be up early enough.

It would be good for me to find out which dates you Euros could be available during your evenings, up to somewhere around midnight. Then I can try to coordinate with F-P his match with Snotty as a first priority, and then mine with the three of you.

Let's hope that Snotty turns up so that something can get done this weekend.

[Fried-Psitalon]

Just a question, but if I beat Snotty, does that end the tournament? Since no one else can match that win percentage - clean sweep?

[notyoueither]

There would be a play off between the two people with the best records. Looks like you are a shoe in to be one of them.