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  • #16
    Sorry Youngsun, I meant for those words to be seperated.

    I may contribute more so I am saving this thread (It is too long to read now) and will read it later.

    -->Visit CGN!
    -->"Production! More Production! Production creates Wealth! Production creates more Jobs!"-Wendell Willkie -1944

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    • #17
      Shadowstrike

      I get the impression while I'm portraying;
      Primitive men(Aborigines,Ainu,Tupi,etc)
      Ancient men (Greeks,Romans,etc)
      ,You are portraying
      Primitive men(Germans,Celts,etc)
      Ancient men(Persians,Numidians,etc)

      I regard those Germanic tribes and Celtic ones barbaric but not necessarily primitive becasue they knew how to farm and breed live stocks(relatively more regular nutritional intake than that of real primitive ones)

      Furthermore physical strength doesn't always equate the close combat capability of the men(big modern men can be easily beaten by smaller but more resilient ancient couterparts at battlefield)

      I believe Ancient era(ancient~medieval)was the peak or Golden age of men fighting in that manner(melee) Remember "melee" represents close combat capability not physical strength. "Mobility" too not necessariliy men's moves but marching ability under combat situation.

      As you said growth rate of ancient men should be higher than that of primitive men nice suggestion. any more suggestion?

      Evil capitalist

      Do you want "Sloop" and "Privateer" get combined?

      Darcloud

      Take your time mate!
      [This message has been edited by Youngsun (edited August 20, 2000).]

      Comment


      • #18
        That was the general idea- best to save on clutter (besides- it would help the newbies to have the pirates using the same ships as them)
        "The free market is ugly and stupid, like going to the mall; the unfree market is just as ugly and just as stupid, except there is nothing in the mall and if you don't go there they shoot you." - P.J. O'Rourke

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        • #19
          Evil Capitalist

          I combined those two into one. (+1 naval melee -1 firepower)

          Any more area which needs more generalisation?
          [This message has been edited by Youngsun (edited August 21, 2000).]

          Comment


          • #20
            I think you've got everything there. Let us hope Firaxis will read it.
            "The free market is ugly and stupid, like going to the mall; the unfree market is just as ugly and just as stupid, except there is nothing in the mall and if you don't go there they shoot you." - P.J. O'Rourke

            Comment


            • #21
              First off I will say, my gosh this topic is long, almost too long.

              However here are some other ideas:

              Modern Man Bonus- Cloning so when you build one modern man basic unit you get two.
              [I admit this is a little strange but it might work]
              Modern Man Bonus- If brought up in a warrior sibko (Battletech) then they would have
              an attack bonus. The Warrior Sibko could be an improvement.
              Has anyone here read 'Battletech'. If so perhaps you could explain
              the improvement better.

              Prehistoric Ideas:
              (You can use 2 of the modules at one time, correct? 2 Weapons or 1 Weapon 1 Armor?)
              Wooden Shield- +1 Armor (This should be for the prehistoric because it was invented then)
              Gigantic Axe- +4 Melee -1 Mobility
              Jagged Sword- +2 Melee

              Ancient Ideas:

              Full-Body Shield- +3 Armor -2 Mobility
              Crossbow- +3 Support
              "Fire" Sword (A sword to be heaved like a javelin and start a fire)- +3 Melee

              Transport Ideas:

              Mule- +1 Support; they have all their supplies within easy access so their morale is boosted.

              Infantry Primary Ideas:

              Blunderbus- +1 Firepower +1 Melee
              Dual Pistols- +5 Firepower +3 Melee
              Automatic Pistols- +8 Firepower +3 Melee

              Armor Ideas:

              Leonardo's Tank- (Drawn by horses) +5 Armor, +4 Firepower

              Siege Support Ideas:

              Siege Tower- +2 seige support (Wall Assault)
              Engineers- +1 seige support (Tunnels)
              Ladders- +1 seige support (Grappling Hooks)
              Germ Warfare- +2 seige support (Carcasses thrown over walls)
              Fire- +2 seige support (Thrown over by Catapults etc.)

              Siege Defense Ideas:

              Scalding Oil- +2 siege defense against Ladders
              Pikes Jutting out from walls- +2 siege defense against Siege Tower
              Wooden Covering over walls- -1 siege defense against fire +2 against Germ Warfare

              Navy:

              Canoe- +1 Movement (Can only traverse rivers)
              There should be a ship unable, past its third turn to navigate coastal waters.
              It must be serviced in the water.

              Air:

              Masking- Blanks out all radar screens. Is invisible. +8 recon. A U-2 for instance.

              Misc.:

              Specialist Settlers should be able to have advantages at each of the various jobs
              Irrigation/Farmland
              Roads/Railroads
              Airbases/etc.

              Say, If they are a specialist they get a +3 to +4 bonus.

              Well, that's about all for now.
              However the way you have things running now Civ will shift from a tactical/city management
              game to a unit building/unit management game, which is all very well and good for a
              completely new game, but not Civ. This system need to be simpler. Not that I am saying
              that it isn't good, it just would not fit civ.


              -->Visit CGN!
              -->"Production! More Production! Production creates Wealth! Production creates more Jobs!"-Wendell Willkie -1944

              Comment


              • #22
                Fire sword? I'm not too good on ancient weaponry but I don't think this was used (e.g. in Germany, like gladiator)
                Leanardo's tank- If we're to have that we also need the steam driven tank proposed to the British in the Crimea. If it didn't get built it shouldn't be in the game.
                Cavalry used dual pistols, not infantry. In fact during the rennaiscence infantry warfare was reduced to pike and musket.
                The castle's wooden coverings were called hoardings and were covered with fireproof leather. Actually- it might be interesting to have fortification units- I'll post a new thread about it).
                That canoe is the same as the outrigger I suggested, I chose the outrigger because of its importance to the polynesians.
                "The free market is ugly and stupid, like going to the mall; the unfree market is just as ugly and just as stupid, except there is nothing in the mall and if you don't go there they shoot you." - P.J. O'Rourke

                Comment


                • #23
                  quote:

                  Modern Man Bonus- Cloning so when you build one modern man basic unit you get two. [I admit this is a little strange but it might work]


                  We'not sure whether complete Human cloning will have sound legal ground to be permitted for general practice except the body organ usage thing.

                  quote:

                  a warrior sibko (Battletech)


                  Hmmm? further explanation needed..

                  quote:

                  Gigantic Axe- +4 Melee -1 Mobility Jagged Sword- +2 Melee


                  Do we really need "Gigantic Axe" and "Jagged sword"? I thought you wanted the list more generalised/simplified and I'd like to do that too. Do those weapons have any historic significance?

                  quote:

                  Full-Body Shield- +3 Armor -2 Mobility


                  I'm guessing on this. Exactly which tribe used this? Goth? or Frank?

                  the list already has "Crossbow"

                  quote:

                  "Fire" Sword (A sword to be heaved like a javelin and start a fire)- +3 Melee


                  Pardon me for my ignorance but I never heard of it. Any reference or historical impact of this weapon? or any major battle fought with this? or which civ used it?

                  quote:

                  Mule- +1 Support; they have all their supplies within easy access so their morale is boosted.


                  Marius's mule can have that function too.(was it 3~4 days of supply?)

                  quote:

                  Blunderbus- +1 Firepower +1 Melee, Dual Pistols- +5 Firepower +3 Melee, Automatic Pistols- +8 Firepower +3 Melee


                  Could you explain what is "Blunderbus"? a relative to Arquebus?

                  Like Evil capitalist said, handguns and later carbines are usually cavalry weapon.

                  quote:

                  Leonardo's Tank- (Drawn by horses) +5 Armor, +4 Firepower


                  I can't accept that sorry. The tank begins its history from WWI.

                  For siege support, things other than "Germ warfare" should be under catapult/trebuchet category which represents all siege crafts of ancient/medieval era. Like Mobile warfare, Germ warfare should be concept or doctrine not a unit module.

                  Shouldn't Anti-siege crafts be part of city defence upgrade rather than a unit module?

                  "Canoe" is in the list named as Outrigger.

                  quote:

                  Masking- Blanks out all radar screens. Is invisible. +8 recon. A U-2 for instance.


                  Could you reveal the name of this device/component? or is this just technique?

                  quote:

                  Specialist Settlers should be able to have advantages at each of the various jobs


                  Isn't all-round settler enough for the game?

                  quote:

                  Civ will shift from a tactical/city management game to a unit building/unit management game,


                  How could you say that!!!!!
                  Without separating weapons and men how can we accomodate "mobilisation" idea?
                  Without having weapons as trade goods how can we handle the "arms trade" idea?
                  Without separating "civilian" and "military" how can we simulate social impact of a war?

                  We all know there will be significant improvement on other aspects of the game(Diplomacy to trade)and most of ideas should come together as complete working body . Do we really want a replica of "CivII military features" ,which is kind of an insult to many intelligent people here,appear again in CivIII? If that happens I will never buy CivIII. If any of you like CivII style military aspect, fine, play CivII but don't interfere to make Civ3.0 something like Civ2.5.

                  Do I sound like warmonger? Perhaps somebody do feel that way but that's the proof of their ignorance of human history which is full of war stories. Actually my play style is close to perfectionist one and I like peaceful expansion and enjoy diplomacy more than raging a war but once I rage a war I want it represented as historically correct as possible with lots of fun.

                  P.S. I added "pistol" and "carbine" thank you.
                  [This message has been edited by Youngsun (edited August 24, 2000).]

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Sorry Darcloud I was so fed up with some other posters and released the anger to you. Do not think I'm angry with you because I'm not.
                    [This message has been edited by Youngsun (edited August 24, 2000).]

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      *Unit stats evaluation*

                      Present unit stats are too rigid thus can't handle changing warfare properly. Unit stats should be flexible to meet the rapid changes of all sort of warfare. Some stats should be obsolete such as "Ancient melee" while others will be introduced later in the game such as "firepower".

                      Ancient Ground Warfare
                      Ancient Melee: hand to hand combat capability
                      Ancient support: firepower which is designed to support Ancient melee
                      Ancient armour:armour which is designed to repel Ancient missile(support)barrage.
                      Mobility:universal throughout all age

                      Modern Ground Warfare
                      Melee:the same as the Ancient one
                      Firepower: firepower based on firearms
                      Support: firepower support which is designed to support modern combat unit
                      Armour: armour which is designed to repel modern firepower attack
                      Mobility: universal throughout all age

                      Ancient Naval Warfare
                      Naval melee:close naval combat capability
                      Hull: hit points of the ship
                      Mobility:crusing speed
                      Sea access: (Coastal/calm sea/rough sea/Ocean)

                      note: No "naval support" in Ancient naval warfare.

                      Modern Naval Warfare
                      Naval firepower: total firepower of each vessel.
                      Naval support/ground support: long range fire support.
                      Hull: hit points of the ship
                      Armour: Ship armour which is designed to repel naval gun barrage/air attack.
                      Mobility:crusing speed.

                      note: No "sea access" in Modern naval warfare.

                      Air Warfare
                      Dogfight: close air combat ability
                      Firepower: Aircraft firepower
                      Air/ground/naval support: support bonus for various branches
                      Range: operational range

                      More coming.....
                      [This message has been edited by Youngsun (edited August 24, 2000).]

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        I guess I'll have to quote on why your idea is totally SCREWED UP.


                        quote:


                        Ours is a world where technological progress in general, and military-technological progress in particular, is often taken for granted. For as long as any individual alive today can remember, new devices have been coming off the assembly lines in an uninterrupted stream; as a result, it has become very difficult to imagine a world in which such advances did not take place and in which old, rather than new, was usually better. And yet, if we go back before 1500, that is precisely the world in which we find ourselves.
                        Alexander the Great was presented with a suit of armour guaranteed to be of Trojan War vintage; which supposedly 900-year-old contraption he then proceeded to wear to battle....The warrors whom we meet in the early medieval chansons de geste did not appreciate new weapons either. Quite the contrary; very often the best weapons were considered to be old ones which supposedly had belonged to famous heroes now dead; and indeed the longer the 'genealogy' associated with any sword, the higher the value which was attached to it and the higher also the price that it could command.
                        On a less anecdotal level, consider the history of fortification. Looking at the reliefs made for the Assyrain King Sanherib in order to commemorate the siege of Lachish in Judaea in 701BC....Without exception, all these elements (in the fortess in Judaea) were still present in medieval fortresses, such as thos constructed by Edward I in Wales around AD1300.
                        What is true for the art of fortification is, not surprisingly, also true of siege technology. In the hands of the Greeks and Romans, this technology advanced rapidly between 400 and 200BC, after whcih it stagnated....The only new device added by the Middle Ages was the trebuchet....As a result, a capable Roman military engineer of the time of Marcellus (210BC)...would have felt himself quite at home in any siege operation before the invention of artillery; and might, indeed, have had something to teach his generally less competent successors.
                        Passing form sieges to field warfare, we likewise find that the most important iron-made weapons-the mace, the sword, the spear, the lance, the pike, the javelin, and the axe in various forms-had all been invented by 600Bc (at the latest) and changed little thereafter. So had the bow in its various forms; and, of course, the various forms of body armour, such as shields, brestplates,helmets,greaves. Depending on tactical needs as well as cultural factors, all these weapons and devices were to assume a bewildering variety of ofrms and shapes. However, from pre-classical Greek times to late medieval ones not one of them underwent fundamental changes, and the great majority even remained in use rught down to the dawn of the modern age.
                        Sixteenth- and even seventeenth century commanders...received a classical education. Consequently they were well aware of these similarities, as indeed they were supposed to be: given that the weapons that they used were sometimes almost identical to those of the ancients, they deliberately attempted to model their own armies on those of the Greeks and the Romans. Such was the case of the Swiss and German pikemen, the Spanish sword-and-buckler men, and the Dutch battalions. So obvious were the parallels, and so slow and sporadic )owing to the absence of a good theoretical framework) the technological progress, that even as late as 1724 a Frenchman, the chevalier de Folard, could write a famous textbook on tactics in which he advocated a return to the Macedonian formation of pikemen.
                        The Oxford Illustrated History of Modern War P.175-178



                        Lets play around with this till after the age of reason and the industrial revolution Ok.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          I guess I'll have to quote on why your idea is totally SCREWED UP.


                          quote:


                          Ours is a world where technological progress in general, and military-technological progress in particular, is often taken for granted. For as long as any individual alive today can remember, new devices have been coming off the assembly lines in an uninterrupted stream; as a result, it has become very difficult to imagine a world in which such advances did not take place and in which old, rather than new, was usually better. And yet, if we go back before 1500, that is precisely the world in which we find ourselves.
                          Alexander the Great was presented with a suit of armour guaranteed to be of Trojan War vintage; which supposedly 900-year-old contraption he then proceeded to wear to battle....The warrors whom we meet in the early medieval chansons de geste did not appreciate new weapons either. Quite the contrary; very often the best weapons were considered to be old ones which supposedly had belonged to famous heroes now dead; and indeed the longer the 'genealogy' associated with any sword, the higher the value which was attached to it and the higher also the price that it could command.
                          On a less anecdotal level, consider the history of fortification. Looking at the reliefs made for the Assyrain King Sanherib in order to commemorate the siege of Lachish in Judaea in 701BC....Without exception, all these elements (in the fortess in Judaea) were still present in medieval fortresses, such as thos constructed by Edward I in Wales around AD1300.
                          What is true for the art of fortification is, not surprisingly, also true of siege technology. In the hands of the Greeks and Romans, this technology advanced rapidly between 400 and 200BC, after whcih it stagnated....The only new device added by the Middle Ages was the trebuchet....As a result, a capable Roman military engineer of the time of Marcellus (210BC)...would have felt himself quite at home in any siege operation before the invention of artillery; and might, indeed, have had something to teach his generally less competent successors.
                          Passing form sieges to field warfare, we likewise find that the most important iron-made weapons-the mace, the sword, the spear, the lance, the pike, the javelin, and the axe in various forms-had all been invented by 600Bc (at the latest) and changed little thereafter. So had the bow in its various forms; and, of course, the various forms of body armour, such as shields, brestplates,helmets,greaves. Depending on tactical needs as well as cultural factors, all these weapons and devices were to assume a bewildering variety of ofrms and shapes. However, from pre-classical Greek times to late medieval ones not one of them underwent fundamental changes, and the great majority even remained in use rught down to the dawn of the modern age.
                          Sixteenth- and even seventeenth century commanders...received a classical education. Consequently they were well aware of these similarities, as indeed they were supposed to be: given that the weapons that they used were sometimes almost identical to those of the ancients, they deliberately attempted to model their own armies on those of the Greeks and the Romans. Such was the case of the Swiss and German pikemen, the Spanish sword-and-buckler men, and the Dutch battalions. So obvious were the parallels, and so slow and sporadic )owing to the absence of a good theoretical framework) the technological progress, that even as late as 1724 a Frenchman, the chevalier de Folard, could write a famous textbook on tactics in which he advocated a return to the Macedonian formation of pikemen.
                          The Oxford Illustrated History of Modern War P.175-178



                          Lets play around with this till after the age of reason and the industrial revolution Ok.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Okay, well now that I have been humbled:

                            Fire Sword

                            -Well a "fire" sword may or may not have been used. I am just estimating.
                            I believe that it may have been used
                            I think in Harry Turtledove's "The Videoss Cycle" Books used it (He majored in history)
                            Although he may have invented it, I think not.
                            -It would work like so; you realize in the Middle Ages how they would strap burning carcasses to the catapults and let them fly infecting and firing the people of the cities at the same time, well the fire sword would have a dove or such on fire impaled on the sword and it would be thrown to make confusion etc.

                            Warrior Sibko

                            This is from a distant future set of books set in the 2400's. A warrior sibko works like so. The warriors are brought up made from genetic materials of older warriors melded together to create perfect fighting machines. (This could be altered to regularly born warriors) Then they are set into rigorous training exercises. They will learn hand to hand when they are 7, and eventually work up to piloting a battlemech (Mechwarrior, or one of the rip-offs ie. Cyberstorm, Heavy Metal Gear) which is a massive fighting machine.

                            In the end they will compete with each other to beat three battlemechs with one and try to compile the highest score. the ones who have the highest score become the perfect warriors.

                            A Note: Sibkos start with 50 and by age 8 they have roughly 30 then at age 13 when the training really becomes intense they are down to possibly 10 and when the final trial comes they are reduced to 2-6

                            They are encouraged to kill eachother honorably. I.e. on equal grounds

                            Gigantic...

                            Well I guess we dont need Gigantic axe or sword.

                            Full Body Shield

                            I believe the Goths used it. However I got this idea from Dungeons and Dragons. Yet it is a sound idea, it is natural progression.
                            Carry shield, Archers shield (Full body) and a regular infantry body shield,

                            Technically I believe the Greeks used this if you look at some documentaries on PBS, they would advance with a large curved wooden shield that was larger than most shields. I believe the ones who used this were called hoplites or something else.

                            Blunderbus

                            I believe this is a real weapon, or so the movies bid me believe.

                            I have seen it used in
                            -Time Warp
                            -Pirates
                            -And almost any Pirate Movie

                            It works like so: it is probably truly called an Arequbus but it just sounded better as a Blunderbus: However, It is loaded like a gun. It is one of the first rifles. It shoots off like a cannon and recoils into your arm. The 'ball' of the gun is like a cannon ball and is about two inches by three or so I believe.

                            I am pretty sure this weapon is real for it has been mentioned so many times.

                            Leonardo's Tank

                            He really DID design this tank and perhaps build this along with the first hang-glider. Yes the first hang-glider, the Italians invented it in the 1500's, not the Germans in the 1800's.

                            However the Germans invented many great things.

                            Masking

                            The F-22 Phantom's in the Airforce use this I believe, it jams the radar-signals so they do not believe or register anything in the sky in the area.

                            Specialist Settlers

                            Wouldn't it just be better to have a settler, like real life people, be specialized for then he could work better at one thing and worse at another.

                            We could merely have a specialist good at Roads, Railroads, Fortresses, Airbases
                            and a specialist good at Irrigation, Farmland.
                            -->Visit CGN!
                            -->"Production! More Production! Production creates Wealth! Production creates more Jobs!"-Wendell Willkie -1944

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              SWPIGWANG The Second

                              Exactly which part of my idea is totally screwed up? Please specify and I have no disagreement with your quotes which I'm aware of very well even before I suggested this idea(You wouldn't think I didn't know about that would you?)Military doctrine/tech are not in revolutionary change during the Dark Age with many cases which showed revival of the classics with few exceptions such as advanced forging techniques,etc. Also many Ancient weapons don't have clear date when they were invented. If you don't like the system when a specific tech(ie.mathmatics)allows a specific unit/weapon(ie.catapult)and other specific tech(ie.metallugy)make old tech obsolete blame whole Civ series and other history related strategic games because it is them who pioneered this system and I'm just following their footsteps.
                              [This message has been edited by Youngsun (edited August 25, 2000).]

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                quote:

                                -Well a "fire" sword may or may not have been used. I am just estimating.
                                I believe that it may have been used
                                I think in Harry Turtledove's "The Videoss Cycle" Books used it (He majored in history)
                                Although he may have invented it, I think not.
                                -It would work like so; you realize in the Middle Ages how they would strap burning carcasses to the catapults and let them fly infecting and firing the people of the cities at the same time, well the fire sword would have a dove or such on fire impaled on the sword and it would be thrown to make confusion etc.


                                Shouldn't they be "fire arrow" or "torch"(or something disposable)? Throwing expensive swords like that seems quite a waste of valuable metal resource. Furthermore it has nothing to do with the main usage of a sword(melee).

                                quote:

                                This is from a distant future set of books set in the 2400's. A warrior sibko works like so. The warriors are brought up made from genetic materials of older warriors melded together to create perfect fighting machines. (This could be altered to regularly born warriors) Then they are set into rigorous training exercises. They will learn hand to hand when they are 7, and eventually work up to piloting a battlemech (Mechwarrior, or one of the rip-offs ie. Cyberstorm, Heavy Metal Gear) which is a massive fighting machine.


                                OK! Sounds fun. How would you like to implement this(as a "man" or "weapon")? Could you think of somthing for near future? As you know most of civ fans don't like things from far future including me.

                                For full body shield, since shields are categorised by wooden/bronze/iron, introducing things like "full body shield" will force the list to add more shape/size specific shields such as Greek hoplon.

                                quote:

                                It shoots off like a cannon and recoils into your arm. The 'ball' of the gun is like a cannon ball and is about two inches by three or so I believe.


                                Aha! I think I've seen it before! how weird looking firearm it was ridiculously big caliber with such a short barrel. I'm sorry it's not a infantry primary firearm. Again if we begin to accept supplementarythings like that we have to accept HMG/inf mortar/Inf gun/RPG/AT rifle/HE/AT recoiless/Grenade/AGL/etc. which I intend to be represented with primary ones thus a modern army unit, armed with assault rifles, is persumed to be fully equiped with inf-mortar/machine gun/AGL/etc. I better call those muskets as "Napoleonic inf firearm set" or Assault rifles as "Advanced inf firearms set".

                                quote:

                                He really DID design this tank and perhaps build this along with the first hang-glider.


                                Did Leonardo's tank seen in action at any battlefield of that period? The Koreans invented World first Ironclad(turtle ship) during 16th century and these ships served in Korean Navy and seen in many actions which varies in scale from 30 to 500 warships. However I did not include this in the list to simplify the ironclad class.

                                I'll add "Masking" upgrade Thank you.

                                For the "settler/worker function", I see the mobilised civilians for grand project as temporary workforce which soon to be discharged to return to their real job(mostly farming) and modern ones may represent construction companies which can generally build railroad/port/highway/tunnel/etc. Do we really need to differentiate construction company's speciality?

                                Thanks

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