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**Youngsun** · August 16, 2000, 03:27

"Why present unit stats should be changed?"
Problem:Archers/catapult can venture out alone with no inf escort!

:Conventional Att/def/FP/hit system of CivII should be phased out of service because CIVII has no concept of unit stack nor combined arms effect.

"How to encourage balanced unit stack?"
:Strong emphasis has to be put on each branch of service with distinctive bonus to make balanced unit stack more rewarding and profitable.

"How to implement right unit stats?"
:In broad definition, armed service can be divided by the line troops and support troops which support the line troops by all means. Line troops close combat capability can be represented by "Melee" and "Support" for other support troops.

"So what are those main branches of armed service?"
Ancient to early Rennaissance
Heavy Infantry(CivII examples:Phalanx,Legion)
Skirmisher
Missile troops(archers)
Shock troops(Knights,Crusaders)
Siege support(catapult,bombard)

Rennaissance to Modern
Infantry(riflemen,marine)
Recon
Artillery(Howitzer)
Armour(armour )
Air force
Navy
Strategic missile force
Logistics(very important branch but missing in CIVII)

More coming....
[This message has been edited by Youngsun (edited August 16, 2000).]

**Youngsun** · August 16, 2000, 09:10

"Basic unit workshop"

Basic unit represent a single man or tank with primary weapon and other equipment.

Examples

1 Ancinet man
Weapon:Bronze sword
Armour:Bronze armour
Extra:Bronze shield
Trained as(doctrine):Heavy Inf

Let's just call this type of man a "Hoplite"

1 Ancient man
Weapon:Composite bow
Armour:none
Extra:none
Trained as(doctrine):Missile troop

Let's just call him a "Archer"

Assuming that you armed/trained your 5121 men as hoplites and 832 men for archers now you can organise them as a military unit.

"Organisation workshop"
If the default set of Phalanx requires 3000 hoplites..

1st Army
1st Phalanx:3000 Hvy equipment:20 catapult(dismantled)
2nd Phalanx:2121(under manned)
1st Archer:832(under manned)

Note:Most of support arms can be attached to a unit as heavy equipments such as field artillery & AA gun. Also you may create a unit that is composed entirely of support arms but this has both advantage and disadvantage(No single aircraft will attack a unit comprised of only AA gun but a group of artillery/mobile rocket launcher can be very useful strategic tool-WWII Russian case)

Additional note:To prevent "unit abuse" there should be "minium men requirement" to be a decent sized unit. ie. No less than 500 men allowed for Phalanx unit.(thanks to Biddles)
[This message has been edited by Youngsun (edited August 18, 2000).]

**Youngsun** · August 17, 2000, 07:53

Brief history of weaponry
(Many thanks to Evil capitalist)

Firearms personnel
Arquebus- generic middle ages firearm c.1300-c.1550
Musket- Wheelocks, firelocks, early flintlock c.1550- 1715 (if I remember right)
Later musket- Flintlocks, bayonets with paper cartridges 1715- 1860
Early rifle- Flintlocks and percussion caps c1750- 1860
Breech loader rifles- bolt action, percussion cap with bullets not musket balls. 1860- 1890
Magazine rifle- Bolt action with magazine 1890- 1940
Semi Automatic rifle- Semi auto, like an M16 or AK47 1940- 2000
Advanced rifle- The stuff the US has just said it's going to buy with attatched grenade launcher-like weapon.

Armour
Basic tanks- 1917-1940: From MkI to Matilda. Mk I male version has guns and machine guns, female just machine guns. between world wars swivel turret appears, and side turrets disappear. Early engines go up to about 4 mph, by WW2 they can do c.20 (I think).
Heavy Tanks- 1920s-1950s: Conquorors, JS3s, etc. Heavy gun, slow movement, thick armour. Lose popularity when good, all round tanks appear.
'Blitzkrieg' tanks- 1935-1970s: Wider tracks, heavier guns than early tanks, but move considerably faster. Later ones include sloped armour, etc. examples: Tiger tanks, Shermans, T34s. Phased out in most armies by the 70s, but still in use in some areas.
MBTs (Main Battle Tanks)- 1945- : Tanks like the centurion, T55, M48 etc. faster, better armoured and better armed than WW2 tanks. Important step up in armourment for western tanks with the introduction of the L7 105mm gun. Many still in service today, forming the backbone of the majority of poorer nations' armoured divisions.
Modern tanks- 1970s- : The next generation of tanks, including M1s, Challengers, Leopard IIs. Make use of bigger guns (usually 120mm), better engines (usually capable of about 50mph), better ammunition (eg APFSDS- armour piercing fin stablisized discarding sabot) and advanced armour,, notably chobham (layers metals, ceramics and plastics designed to defeat APDS rounds).

Navy
Outrigger: Used by the polynesians to colonise loads of islands. Calm seas, must stay by coast, always a risk of loss.

Early merchant vessel: The boats you get sailing the mediteranean before the first proper navies develop.Calm seas.

Tririeme: A coverall term I'll use to cover all the multiple oar ships (they go to quinrieme). Developed by the Greeks and Tyre to beat the small vessels (like the merchant ships) that threatened them. Powered by slaves or criminals, and good in most weathers. They relied apon ramming and boarding for their damage, and carried marines for the purpose. Calm seas.
Special ability: Greek fire. Increases Greek fire was a napalm like substance that was sprayed onto ships. This was vital in Byzantium's naval defense. The secret of its composition was jealously guarded and now
lost. Increases firepower.

Longboat: The shallow bottomed vessels that carried raiders to foreign shores. I can't think of any engagement involving these, but they need to be included. Equipped with sails and oars the Viking longboat is a purpose built landing craft. These sailed to Newfoundland, the Black sea and the Levant.
They could travel up rivers, and few places near the coast were safe from them. Rough seas.

Galley: This was the vessel that appeared from the dark ages. Like a tririeme, but with more emphasis on the oars. Galleys formed the centre of the power of Venice and Genoa. Galleys saw battle as late as the Napoleonic war, and were only got rid of when steam allowed vessels to sail without wind. Although crewed by free men in Venice, they later became floating prisons with appauling conditions. Calm seas.

Cog: While merchant vessels in the mediteranean were light and fast, trade in the North sea required strong ships with wide beams and deep drafts. The cog provided that and because of their large cargo space soon replaced their mediteranean equivalents. They also required piers, leading to harbours being built. Rough seas, coastal.

Junk: The chinese merchant vessel was well designed and better than most western ships for centuries The sails were well configured for maneuvrability. Rough seas. Coastal

Dhow: The arab trade vessel. The sils were efficient, but the ship could not be turned without taking down the sail, requiring large crews or a straight course. Calm seas.

Battleship: This term is used for all large ships in the middle ages, but I don't know any other name so I'll use this. The very biggest vessels in medieval navies were called battleships, and were a symbol of a king's power. They usually had 'castles' at the front and back- forecastles and aftercastles. These would be packed with archers or occasionally a cannon. These ships would carry troops to a foreign shore, but would also provide an escort for smaller ships. Rough seas. Coastal.

Age of Discovery vessels. (all assumed to be rough seas and, unless stated otherwise, capable of sailing away from the coast)

Caravel: A trading vessel with improved sails over the longboat. This ship can sail in difficult situations.
Caravels were used to explore by Henry the Navigator, Christopher Columbus, Vasco de Gama and Ferdinand Magellan.

Carrack: A development of the caravel with three or four masts. Used square sails like the caravel and usually had a high fore- and aftercastles where artillery was mounted. Carracks were most famously used by the English to defeat the Spanish armada, being faster and more maneuverable. The carrack later developed into the frigate.

Galleon. Developed in 1570 by Sir John Hawkins by removing the forecastle from a carrack to improve handling. The name galleon was given to it by the Spanish, and it was used in the armada. The Galleon developed into the ship of the line.

Fluyte: Developed by the Dutch with a rounder hull to accommadate more cargo. This ship formed the backbone of trading fleets until the indiaman came along. The fluyte halped the dutch to secure the spice trade and become one of the greatest trading powers in world history.

Sloop: A small ship with about 20 guns. Sloops would be good pirateand anti pirate vessels if they are to be included in the game.

Frigate: Ships which had less guns than a ship of the line, but were more maneuvrable. Frigates were used for patrols and exploration, and were the fast ships in any squadron. Also like any other warship the frigate would be used in landings, and British frigates did well when they raided the French coast towards the end of the Napoleonic war.

Ship of the line: Varying from between around 70 guns to around 130 these were the backbone of fleets from their development (gradual but around 1680s if I had to commit myself to a date) to the 1860s. With the guns on three or more decks the ship of the line was usually employed in squadrons, although sometimes they operated on their own. To give an idea of the numbers in service the royal navy could boast over 150 dat the time of Nelson's death (the USN has only 110 submarines today, their most numerous vessel). The ship had several masts and vast sails (don't ask me for the names). Later they were equipped with steam engines and paddles, but retained the sails. It was only with the realisation of the strength of the ironclad that the SOL fell out of favour.
Special abilities: Heated cannon shot: Invented in the 1840s by a Frenchman the heated shot could cause a wooden ship to catch fire rapidly. Increased damage to wooden ships. Steam engine: Increased speed

Indiaman: This merchantman replaced the fluyte and became the dominant trader during the commercial revoltion. The size varied, but the ship serviced the east india companes well. Many a fortune was made when the indiaman someone had invested in arrived in port (hence "when my ship comes in")

Industrial age ships

Clipper ship: Fast and efficient the clipper first appeared in the early 19th century and lasted until the improved efficiency of steamboats made them no longer competitive

Early steamship: The most famous example of this is the SS Great Britain, but there are many others. These ships gradually came into prominance as the steam engine improved. Driven first by paddlewheels, then by screws, the steamship was well suited to routes in civilized areas.

Early Ironclad: The idea of a ship coated with iron was put forward in the 1850s by an Englishman. The admiralty did not want to start an arms race that would leave most of their ships out of date, so the idea was not taken up. However some were built by the USA, notably the monitor and the merrimac. When these two ships tried to destroy one another in the civil war taking hours to cause damage the battle was reported world wide. The winner, the monitor, then sank on it's way to be repaired. Coastal.

Early submarine: Although the first submarine was built in the 17th century the first time they were built in peacetime was in the mid 19th century. Extremely unsafe and prone to sinking, these vessels did not catch on until the turn of the 20th century. coastal, when out of port is very likely to get damaged.

Later Ironclad: After the victory of the Monitor all navies started to build ironclads. A few ironclads had been made before- notably the French La Gloire and the British Warrior. The royal navy at first cladded some ships of the line with iron. However soon they were purpose building the ships. These ironclads still used sails to save coal, but this gradually disappeared with the rise in coaling stations and the application of rotatable turrets.
Special abilities: Rotatable turrets: Although this resulted in a decrease in total firepower, the guns could be turned to face any direction, increasing their effect. This resulted in the removal of rigging and other problematic parts, although that had little effect on performance.

Cruiser: This ship was an improvement on the newer ironclads, and was the first sort of vessel to look like a modern warship. First classified by the British in 1887, but dating back about 20 years more. Fast and with medium armament, the first ones were built with sails and steam, such as HMS Shah in 1868, and made of iron (later steel). They soon became better protected with armoured decks and shields for machinary and magazines. These protected cruisers were replaced with armoured cruisers, which were used for raiding merchants and scouting. After WW1 the cruiser became the dominant vessel, with large guns and a considerable AA ability. The cruiser finally went into decline in the missile age- being much more expensive than frigates and destroyers, but not much more powerful.
Special abilities: see modern abilities(below)

Battleship: the term was coined by the royal Navy for a ship of over 74 guns. However it would come to mean one of the largest ships afloat. In 1871 the British launched HMS Devastation- with no sails and four guns in two turrets. The size of guns rapidly increased to above 12", the displacement grew and the engines became faster. However early battleships were not so good at hitting their targets, and were vulnerable to mines.
However in 1906 HMS Dreadnought was launched making all other battleships obselete and starting an arms race to build massive dreadnoughts. The rangefining was improved, the speed greater, the guns more powerful and the armour as thick as any other ship of the time. However they were still vulnerable to submarines, and that is how most of them were lost. Their vulnerability to aerial attack was discovered but ignored in the 1920s. The ships became more costly and less practical. Aircraft carriers proved more deadly in WW2 and Britain scrapped her last battleship, the King George V, in the 1950s. America recently recommissioned four Ohio class battleships (I think), which made appearances in the Lebnanon and the Iraqi war.
Special abilities: see below

Battlecruiser: A ship that was meant to provide the speed of the cruiser and the power of the battleship. The first one was laid down in 1906, capable of 25 knots and with 8 12" guns. The battlecruiser could sink a battleship, but had little armour, making it rely on its speed for protection. The ships' vulnerability was proven at the battle of Jutland, where German battlecruisers, with thicker armour, lasted considerably longer in the fray. Of the three the Royal navy retained two were sunk in 1941, one to japanese planes and another to the German battleship Bismark.

Submarines: The fully submersable sub appeared in the 1880s. This, when equipped with torpedos, was a deadly menace to shipping. In 1895 a new version appeared with a combined steam and electric power system. The power of submarines was demonsrated in WW1, when they became a major instrument of blockade. The most famous use of submarines were the German U boats. These brought Britain close to defeat with their attacks on British and American convoys.
The first nuclear submarine was built in 1955 was the start of the uclear submarines. The submarines of today fall into two catagories- standard and missile. Standard submarines are intended to blockade and attack shipping. Missile submarines carry nuclear weapons, such as the Polaris and Trident systems. Special abilities: Engine choice: Steam+electic/ Diesel+electric/ hydrogen peroxide fuel*/ nuclear reactor. Air rebreather: A far more efficient way to reuse air in an enclosed environment. Stealthy: Minimises heat, sonar and electronic emisions, making the sub much harder to detect.

Destroyer: The first destroyers were unarmoured torpedo boats, but later they started to be fitted depth charges and given light armour as well. They soon became escort vessels, capable of dealing with submarines and aircraft. In the 1950s they came to be equiped with rockets and radar, and gradually they became the main surface vessel of most fleets.
Special options: see below.

Frigate: The name of this class is the same as the Napoleonic ship. The ship was developed in an ASW capacity during WW2 to protect convoys. The ship has risen to become the largest class of ship in most navies (excluding the carrier). Originally equiped with small deck guns and depth charges, they now have anti-ship missiles like the exocet and seawolf.
Special abilities: See below

Carrier: The first purpose built aircraft carrier was HMS Ark Royal (the third of seven IIRC). This launched its aircraft from the water, and was soon outdated by the full carrier, with take off and landing possible on deck. Development happened between the wars, mainly thanks to arms limitation treaties limiting battleships, and the new designs culminated in the fleets that took part in Pearl Harbour and the battle of Midway. The armoured flight deck was introduced by the British at this time (giving the Kamikazes who crashed into these decks a shock). After the war The British introduced the steam ctapult, allowing the carrier to finally become a floating airfield, capable of launching the air armadas of today. One of the newer developments of carriers has been the VTOL carrier, which is cheaper than a fleet carrier, but can still provide a base for large air attacks, as proved in the Falklands. There are also new carriers, called amphibious ships, that carry only helicopters and marines.
Special abilities: Engines: as other 20th century ships. Armoured deck: makes the ship a lot less vulnerable. AA countermeasures: makes the ship less vulnerable to aerial and missile attacks. Steam catapult: allows all fighters/fighter bombers to use carrier.

Liner: Between 1870 and 1900 the time it took to cross the Atlantic halved. Speed and size increased dramatically. Liners and huge steamships were the foundations on which the modern world was built. These ships service global empires and worldwide trading systems.

Container ship: In the 1960s containerisation revolutionised the merchant fleets of the world. Whereas before the ships had been of a single cargo, the idea that containers on a huge ship could be sold to anyone meant massive vessels with enormous cargoes. This spelt the end for many docks, which were too shallow to hold the ships. London docks, the busiest in the world in 1900, was completly shut down by 1980.

Trimarin: This is a new development, just ending trial stages, which uses a revolutionary three hull design to increase speed and decrease fuel consumption.
Special abilities: See below

Stealth boat: This is under development by at least the USN and RN. The idea is to have a ship invisable to radar, and which can thereby regain the element of surprise in naval warfare.
Special Abilites: God knows.

Special abilities for 20th century ships:

Engines: Steam turbine engine. Gas/oil turbine. Nuclear reactor.

ASW abilities: Torpedos, sonar etc.: spot and attack submarines in adjacent squares. (made more effective with Sonar)

ASW helicopter: Many ships today are equipped with helicopters, which can carry torpedoes to a detected submarine without giving away the position of the ship. Combat *2 vs Submarines.

Spotter plane: Popular in WW2 ships, these were used to keep track of the battle and report of shot accuracy before radars and computers. See 2 squares. +1 firepower

Electronic aids: Does all the processing of data and collects it all in one room. See 2 squares, +1 firepower (cheaper than plane)

Fibre-optic link: Allows ships to maximise communication. further +1 firepower.

Missile launch facilities: Allows a ship to launch cruise missiles.

AA countermeasures: AA missiles and chainguns give a ship almost total protection from aerial and missile attack.

Missiles
Early missiles: V1s, V2s. Cause little damage due to the poor guidance systems.

ICBMs (intercontinental balistic missiles): Designed to deliver a nuclear warhead halfway across the globe. Revolutionised by the introduction of solid fuel, meaning they could be left ready to launch, without needing to be filled up first.

IRBMs (Intermediate range balistic missiles): The backbone of most nuclear deterants. These are the things on the back of trucks that get paraded around. Meant for in theatre war- but often have a range of several thousand miles.

SLBMs: (Submarine launched balistic missiles)Submarine launched weapons, meant to strike anywhere, with less cost than an ICBM. USA, USSR and Britain have these.

Cruise missiles: Designed to deliver low level nuclear strikes, the cruise missile came to be the best method of damaging a target without collateral damage or putting friendly lives at risk. They were greatly improved by GPS networks and other precision surveying.

special ability for ICBMs and SLBMs: multiple warhead system: To economise on their nuclear forces some powers use multiple warhead missiles.
[This message has been edited by Youngsun (edited August 18, 2000).]

**Youngsun** · August 17, 2000, 08:38

Updated....

**DarkCloud** · August 17, 2000, 18:16

I still think this is too complicated but here goes:

So in Civ III there will be a screen say which looks like this:
------------------------
| Branch of Service / Armor Type
|
|
| Composition of Unit / Weapons
|
|
| Shield
|
|
|
|
| SAVE RETURN TO CITY SCREEN W/O SAVING
-------------------------
On the screen there will be choices:

Branch of Service:
Wherefore you select Ancient Infantry (Warrior), Heavy Infantry etc.
Depending on 'Composition of Unit' choices you will have the option to choose 1,2,or 3 Branch
of Services (BoS)
Composition of Unit:
Here you will select weather the unit will be dispersed between
1,2,or 3 different weapon/armor/branch of service combinations
Armor Type:
Select your armor type, Bronze, Chain-Mail (Archer's armor), etc.
Weapons:
Wherefore you can select your Sword of Shining Truth, Sword +1 and the ever-present
Enchanted Elven Sword. (Just Joking... Huh..huh..get it, get it all you D&D fans!)
Shield:
This will be a box where you can check yes or no to. It will be disabled if you check
two weapons for each branch of service. The shield will be the most up-to-date shield
Say a Bronze shield, Wooden Shield, Iron shield, etc.

All will be drop-down menues unless mentioned.

Are there any problems with this method Youngsun?
[This message has been edited by DarkCloud (edited August 19, 2000).]

**Shadowstrike** · August 17, 2000, 18:47

Well, technically, the more ancient the people that better fighters they are (primal instincts) but at some point training can overcome this.

**Youngsun** · August 18, 2000, 02:52

Darkcloud

I'm not sure what "Branch of Service Armor Type" means. I think they have to be separated.

Men/Chassis/Hull
Branch(I prefer doctrine)
Weapon
Shield(I prefer Armour)
Extra(or special)

I reckon Unit workshop should be able to make a basic unit as well as an organisation such as Infnatry division.

At basic unit level, you can design your combat personnel or crews then at organisation level, you can customise your Infnatry division or naval vessels by using these personnel,Heavy equipment,special upgrade,etc somewhat similar to that of MOO unit workshop.

Once you designed your divisions and such you can assign them as army or fleet so battle will be conducted at army/army group or fleet level.

Due to revolutionary changes in military related technologies after Gunpowder, consistant stats(Att/Def/FP/hit)through Ages can't handle the wars fought after Gunpowder properly which means new stat like Firepower should be allowed only to the units after Gunpowder.

If you think there are any area within the list which needs more simplification/generalisation just let me know so we can discuss about it. OK?

Shadowstrike

I changed the Primitive/ancient men melee to 2. Anything else you think we need to review?

**Urban Ranger** · August 18, 2000, 06:07

Youngsun,

Good work, though I have yet to look at it closely.

**Youngsun** · August 18, 2000, 08:48

Thank you Urban Ranger

Anything,you think ,needs to be reviewed please let me know.

**Biddles** · August 18, 2000, 21:57

The army compoition could be abused. If I make 100 units each with 1 soldier in them, they would not be able to withstand an attack from anything but I would then have 100 exploration units.

------------------
- Biddles

"Now that our life-support systems are utilising the new Windows 2027 OS, we don't have to worry about anythi......."
Mars Colonizer Mission

**Shadowstrike** · August 18, 2000, 22:27

I think that the Primative man should get +1 to movement (hunting skills) but also see to it that modern men get some advenatage too.

**Youngsun** · August 18, 2000, 23:37

Biddles

Good point Biddles!

How about "minium strength requirement" for a combat unit? Any unit which has less men than the requirement would vanish then the retired men would return to the "National manpower pool".

Any other suggestion?

P.S. I made additional note for basic unit workshop section. thank you.

Shadowstrike

I reckon generally Ancient men are fitter than their primitive counterparts considering higher nutritional intake and athletic habits(of course it depends on what culture they belong to but I wanted to simplify it)

Modern men's advantage will be the ability to use all modern weaponry which is something Rennaissance/Ancient men can not have. Can you think of any other bonus for Modern men?

Any other suggestion?

P.S. I added "Privateer" thank you for the clue "P"
[This message has been edited by Youngsun (edited August 18, 2000).]

**Shadowstrike** · August 19, 2000, 10:13

Generally, if Primative men were hunters and ancient men farmers, the primative men were taller and stronger, while the ancient men were shorter and marginally stouter but suffered from a variety of diseases. How about making the growth rate of ancient men higher, but making primative men stronger?

**Evil Capitalist** · August 19, 2000, 11:10

Technically a privateer is a state sponsored ship that raids enemy merchants, but is not part of the fleet. They are fast and not too well armed.

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