Simple way to make CIV more "real"

[bobbo008]

"So, any vote for a conservative is manipulated?"

He's pretty conservative...

"Besides, after the lefties get done with it it won't be worth owning and we will have to put up with massive immigration from the North as well."

Sounding a bit Republican are we?

Yes, even the people in the Northern states will migrate into the wealthy southern states.

"No, I had the quotation marks in the right place."

Huh?

"History will tell, and history has shown time and time again how states that go for the liberal dream crash and burn.
The first was Rome, which had massive public assistance programs that drained the treasury so much that the legions could not be paid.
The USSR is a mess, although it was an extreme case of leftism.
East Germany is a wreck and even California is drowning in debt.
Now it is Europes turn, how fun it will be to watch the lefties make excuses for just plain bad management."

Yes, Rome's problems were because of public assistance (free bread and entertainment?). Not because of wars, corruption, or the high % of slaves... Then you talk about communists, which most of us have already gotten over as a horrible system (real world communism, not pure). California does control 1/5 of the world's money... Yes, Europe will perish, as well... The only world success is the Southern U.S., which has evolved to the point to perfection.

[bobbo008]

As much as I enjoy political debates, I'll attempt to get my basic feelings out right now:

Capitalistism suck. Every government that has ever been has sucked. It's all based on material things and power. The only thing that matters, really, is your own happiness. To think you have the exact mix of policies, conservatism, and whatever is absurd. All of that is bullsh*t. Thousands of years of advancement have done what? We live longer? Can have objects? Build things? But what does that REALLY matter? Thousands of years ago, we hunted or gathered or whatever for an hour or so, and spent hours playing with our kids. Civilization will always be a struggle, and accomplish nothing. The masses will always be stupid and easily manipulated, and moderately intelligent people will have the greed and lust to manipulate them. Nothing has really changed. It's so great to live in a capitalist society, where money and power are now openly sought out.

[TomCB]

WOW bobbo008

I guess I missed a post or two of yours.

I will attempt to make up

Capitalism is the only economic system that will ever work for humans. Everything else tried has limited advancement and ruined countries.

Where in the world did you get the work for an hour and enjoy the day idea for ancient man.

Actually, they struggled to survive. Most only lived until 40 or so and even in Russia of the 1700's, half of all children did not live past the first year.

Le Pen may be conservative by European standards, but by US standards he is still a liberal, just not the typical pseudo-communist type that is in charge now.

I am a Constitutionalist, not a Republican.
Pick up a copy of the Constitution of the US and read it and see how much of it we (the USA) ignore and have for the last 150 years.

The Northern states are the weathy ones, the South has been the poor ones ever since the end of the civil war at which time they were plundered by the northern armies and their lands ravaged.

As usual, the leftist misses the point about Rome.
Higher public assistance creates an entitlement mentality.
The money was not there to pay for the legions to defend the empire and the people were constantly given things, perks and distractions that they didn't care where it came from.
The high number of slaves were from the wars of conquest that Rome engaged in so that it could afford it's growing welfare state.
The slaves were sold to get more money into the treasury.
THAT, is how the Roman empire collasped.
Rome was not built or destroyed in a day.

California is the 8th largest economy in the world, not 20% of the whole. There is a big difference.
Don't forget that the USA is a HUGE country, and we need to have a few things as standard in order to remain a country.
A common currency, language and form of government is tops on the list. The US is in danger of losing the common language part already.

Pure communism can not work in a human society. We are not wired that way. We need incentive to work, which communism destroys.

Communism is just the extreme left side, a direction that the further you go towards, the worse conditions get.
Just like if you go to far right, you can have the same problem.
As much as some people hate to admit it, but even the NAZI party had socialist ideas.
Maybe that is why it was called the "Nationalist Socialist Workers Party".
All for the state and all that.

"Civilization will always be a struggle, and accomplish nothing."
WOW, what world do you live on?
Like having a warm place to live, medical care if you get hurt, food pretty darn cheap, the computer you are using? How about the internet which was created by the US defense Dept and given freely to the world?
How about art, music, architecture?
Only in the last 2000 or so years has civilization really gotten off the ground and further more, only in the last 200 years has the vast majority enjoyed so many of the benifits.
Just imagine where things will be in another 200 years.

That appears to be a recurring theme with leftists.
They think that this is as good as it can get and we conservative think this is only the beginning of even greater chapters in the saga of Man.

I will try to believe that it is past your bed time and you are so tired you are not thinking straight.

What works is a government that one can go your entire life without having to deal with.
You won't need anyones permission to do business and as long as you don't violate anyone else, can go about whatever means you can to better the lives of yourself and your family.
It is called "enlightened self interest"
It takes nothing out of your check and gets the little money it needs from import taxes and user fees.
It provides no programs let alone those that consume in administration costs 87% of every dollar they receive (like US programs do) and a system where local (at most state, at best city) government is where decisions are made.

By the way, why are you in the evil capitalist US (and Wisconsin of all places) instead of the workers paradise of Norway?
Hmmmm. More opportunities maybe?

Come on, alittle truth here.

You leftys are just so damn jealous of the US that you can't stand it.
We took in the world rejects (my family included) and created the greatest nation to ever bless this planet with it's existence, and you just can't stand it.

The truth will set you free.........

LOL

[Zachriel]

Atzlan

I am Spartacus.



Off-topic discussion of Atzlan:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=72515

[Panag]

hi ,

talking about flipping , belgium is the only country that still has a piece of germany , they occupied it after WWII and still have not given it back , .....

have a nice day

[TomCB]

Did not know that

That Belgium held once German territory. Any idea where it is and how big?

Zachriel

Yes, you are Spartacus.

And if you keep saying things like that you very well may end up just like him.

There is plenty of room for someone so brave in the mid west should things get too rough on the left coast.

[Panag]

Re: Did not know that

Originally posted by TomCB
That Belgium held once German territory. Any idea where it is and how big?

Zachriel

Yes, you are Spartacus.

And if you keep saying things like that you very well may end up just like him.

There is plenty of room for someone so brave in the mid west should things get too rough on the left coast.

hi ,

its near the german border , they call it the east cantons , take a map of belgium , look in the direction of germany , it has town like eupen , malmedy and st-vith , a map of the battle of the bulge shows most of it also

we should have something like "annex" in civ , .....
but how could that be worked out

have a nice day

[TomCB]

panag

Ok, SO that would be in the Southern area near Lexemburg.

The option in CIV would be like demanding a square (s).

Perhaps CIV 4 will need to have "overlay" maps that could cover things like language, culture, national preference of the people there and what have you.

All this would however, make conquest victory much more difficult.

[Panag]

Originally posted by bobbo008
Le Pen, to my knowledge, did want to leave the Eurozone and the E.U., but I doubt one man is going to make that happen (yeah, all of France's problems are Europe's fault). That would cost I don't know how much money and would be rejected by everyone but some old opinionated WWII vets and radicals.

If France left the E.U., though, would it still exist after that? Hmm... think of what that would lead to...

hi ,

well if you read some of the flyers his supporters handed out when the elections where going , .......the say that they should leave the eurozone and europe , .....

and can we please keep BS politics in the OTF instead of a civ thread , .....

have a nice day

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

WOW!

I just read this entire thread, and I'm going to try to summarize some of the key points made: the good, the bad, and the ugly.

1. Many people would like to see the ability to negotiate borders between different civilizations, as in done in real life. Some feel Civ does not go far enough in this sense, and others feel that the latter game, after Nationalism, makes culture flipping so rare that it does correctly emulate "real life".

I for one belong to this camp... I feel the Civilizations in the game represent true "Civilizational blocs," as Huntington would say. In other words, "New Zimbabwe" defecting to, say, France, is not viewed as a city alongside Rouen, Chartes, etc., but is seen as a basic vassal of France, much as most of the Western hemisphere can be said to "belong" to America even though they don't literally belong to the USA.

Still, countries do negotiate borders often, even in the modern age, so including this option in a future Civ patch or version would be appropriate.

2. Canals! Bring 'em on. No one seems to disagree with this.

3. LePen is not actually an anti-immigrant, pro-Church candidate, he's a leftist. I will refrain from commenting on this completely idiotic stateme... I mean, I will refrain from commenting on this issue.

4. Soon, due to the predominance of leftists in uncaring Canada and in long-PRI-dominated Mexico, which is now run by a pro-business candidate, and the preponderence of their oppressive failed socialist policies, the USA will soon be overrun by immigrants from both North AND South who will not assimilate into our culture in anyway, and will strip us of our beloved English language, which no one speaks anymore, especially not the bulk of Americans.

5. Currency should be represented in the game in a more detailed way. Amen to that. Someone mentioned Nixon taking us off the gold standard, an act perhaps the most significant in American economic history in the last 55 years. Currency fluctuations can make or utterly break a country... just look "south of the border" for numerous examples. Yet it can bring short-term bliss. So this should definitely, somehow, be represented in the game.

What else can we do to make Civ more life-like?

And one last thing... maybe I shouldn't even write this...

Pat Buchanan won 35% of the vote when he ran?WHEN? When in God's name did Pat Buchanan get 35% of the popular vote in a general election? Not in my lifetime. In the 1992 Republican Primary, yes. Since then, Pat Buchanan has foundered on the rocks.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Re: Re: Did not know that

Originally posted by panag

we should have something like "annex" in civ , .....
but how could that be worked out

have a nice day

This is the same as demanding a city in negotiations, basically. Unless you're talking about individual squares...

Two more things to think about:

1. Suburbs/smaller urban centers go largely unrepresented in the game.

2. Earlier someone mentioned irrigation. This is a VERY important issue in negotiations, especially these days. It will eventually overpower oil as a consideration in global politics. I sure would love to shut off my opponent's water sources in Civ, as real "civs" do in real life. Think about it: it would make a subtle but important impact! Are there any patches that address this?

[bobbo008]

How can a city, existing in 20 or so squares, have millions of people, but you can't have two 10,000 person cities adjacent to each other?

[Panag]

hi ,

bigger maps are needed , earthquakes , hey they can move the world when a nuke goes of , so why not , .....

more units , a ship based helicopter , more naval units , more units in general , more resources , a bigger techtree with more technology , and an option to keep a "regular" game with "regular" techtree or to have an "extended" game , .....

have a nice day

[bobbo008]

I transport can carry 8 units, and that's just...little. An aircraft carrier is...big...there's no reason it can't carry land units, especially for helicopters.

[Panag]

Re: Re: Re: Did not know that

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth


This is the same as demanding a city in negotiations, basically. Unless you're talking about individual squares...

Two more things to think about:

1. Suburbs/smaller urban centers go largely unrepresented in the game.

2. Earlier someone mentioned irrigation. This is a VERY important issue in negotiations, especially these days. It will eventually overpower oil as a consideration in global politics. I sure would love to shut off my opponent's water sources in Civ, as real "civs" do in real life. Think about it: it would make a subtle but important impact! Are there any patches that address this?

hi ,

, individual spaces , ..... its an , there has to be a way to do this , .....

what is also needed is an option to close an embassy until a new one is build ( ! )

have a nice day