Simple way to make CIV more "real"

[Master Zen]

Privateer guerrilla units, that's a good idea, could you just use the editor to give guerrilla units the property of not showing it's civ's colors?

FIRAXIS READ THIS: WE WANT CANALS!!

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by raguil_79
Privateer guerrilla units, that's a good idea, could you just use the editor to give guerrilla units the property of not showing it's civ's colors?

Yes, I suppose you could. I haven't because I'm orthodox about playing Civ as though it just "came out of the box," i.e., the way Firaxis tells me to play it. Maybe I'm stupid.

But, damn, forces like the Contras play a greater role in the world today than many other military units depicted in the game. Someone should include them! (i.e., privateer units with guerrilla stats)

The contras were obviously a US-backed force, but no one could really call the US on it, because the Contras were nominally fighting for "freedom" or whatever... just like a privateer unit.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

In fact, privateer-style guerrilas would be a good way to depict one of our top "villians" of today, the TALIBAN!

[mrboo123]

Originally posted by raguil_79
Chat rooms instead of battlegrounds. Now THAT would be a solution for the ages. We probably wouldn't even need the UN! (...)

Yup, maybe would cause World-peace? But we still need the UN... as a mod!

[TomCB]

First, my spelling and typing is anyting but great, I will never make an issue of it unless I can't tell what a word is.

NOW. Why did Britain and France declace war on Germany, they were not threatened? They only had an agreement with Poland to "help" if Poland was attacked.
Some governments must be changed if it is determined to be required.

They were attacking belately pro-active.

Other governments are here trying to change the US all the time, the difference is that here they hire law firms to lobby congress and public relation firms to broadcast their version of the truth.


The world is filled with fence sitters.
We are just plain tired of it. Time to put certain issues to rest once and for all.

As far as nuclear testing goes.
Remember that no one (publically) knew how dangerous the bombs were.
BUT, evidence has shown that they knew there was more danger than they let on.
Smart? Moral? Not at all.
Necessary? Maybe (big MAYBE, that they thought so)

The US only used the threat of nukes if we or our allies were attacked. This saved the need for massive conventional arms at the ready.

If you actually think that the N Koreans are in any way morally equal to the US, or just about any other nation, then you don't really know who they are.

The US has had more than a couple of times where the use of nukes would have saved American lives and we did not use them.

As far as American interests goes, I guess it looks a whole lot different on this side of the border than your side. We constantly read about our leaders (mainly Clinton) selling out our national interests for personal or very minor gains.
We give VAST sums of money to countries that hate us because we don't give more.
The hypocracy you mention is far and away the worst sin of the US government.
It is rampant and it is the cause of MOST of our problems.
The issue is that our congress, and many times our president, are no better than whores to special interest groups. Those special interest groups are the ones that hire the law firms and have vocal if not large groups that will make a stink when called upon.

4 raguil_79
You assumption that western powers don't want rouge states to get nuclear waepon so that they may be blackmailed is on the surface plausiable, but upon inspection, is not correct.
Once they have them, they can blackmail (like N Korea did in 94) by offering to sell to other powers or groups.
Also, the US, for instance, could erase N Korea before N korea had any idea that missiles were coming, so them having nukes would not be a factor.

Heaven help the world if a nuke goes off in the US. The people here would no longer care about civilians or even whole countries. it would turn into a fight to completely erase any opponent before it could happen again. Whole sections of the world would be rendered uninhabitable.
Also, I have to agree that no country can expect to be powerful forever. The US has lost alot of drive to maintain that lead. China will most likely be the largest economy in another 20-30 years.
Europe could but I think that the huge levels of socialism will stop that.
Brazil could still emerge as a power house fueled by it's power industry growing at a very fast clip.

The US people are "fat and happy" and it will take a real threat to change that.

As far as the Contra's success goes, yes I can refute that they lost.

http://www.rose-hulman.edu/~delacova/nicaragua/crossroads.htm

That link was very easy to find.

The goal of the contras was to 1. get rid of the communists. and 2. Appantly, was to sell cocain.
They sold alot of crack and the communists are gone.

If they lost, the communists would still be there.

The editor in CIV 3 and PTW is pretty good and no one is "stupid" for playing like they want to.
Is there a way to tone down the global warming.
My GOD, the AI's go into a free for all nuke war and I need 100 workers just to keep my area set up.

The Taliban was the leadership of a minor country. I would not call them guerrilas per se, but the Nothern resistance could be.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

The Taliban were proxies of Pakistan. The Northern Alliance are proxies are several countries. Afghanistan under the Taliban or at any time in the 20th century to the present day was not a major power center; thus, it should not be represented in a scenario with limited AIs.

[TomCB]

I would tend to agree with Yahweh Sabaoth.
Perhaps a Taliban type of group would make a good religious zealot area like a very minor power or barbarians.
Special units or spy like attacks unitl destroyed and even after for a bit.
I do believe I called them the leaders of a minor country.
OK, maybe minor was exaggerating their strength.

[Master Zen]

1) Ok, here's the real deal with the Contras:
They were militarily DRIVEN OUT of Nicaragua by 1987, launching only minor incursions up until de Sandinista electoral defeat of 1990. Plus, thanks to Ollie North and the scandal it became more difficult to supply these guys. Saying this is a VICTORY just because the Sandinistas lost the election is just like saying Germany actually won WW2 because the British Empire and the Soviet Union no longer exist, and now they are driving VWs and Mercedes.

2) The Brits and French did not pre-empt Germany in Sept. 1939, if that's what you're getting at. It was the response of a protection treaty with Poland which was activated the moment the Wehrmacht crossed the polish border. Pre-emption would have been invading Germany the moment Hitler got to power (didn't anyone read Mein Kampf at the time?), or at the most after he re-militarized the Rheinland. I can hardly call this Allied response pro-active since by this time Hitler was master of most of central Europe.

3) It is politically impossible for the US or any other nation to completely wipe out another with nukes unless that nation launched a nuke first, so YES, having nukes is a deterrent towards a conventional attack since destroying N. Korea would be no compensation for the US population if a Korean nuke killed hundreds of thousands of US troops or leveled a West Coast city.


CIV3

Yahweh: perhaps you feel that you're cheating if you meddle with the editor (trust me, sometimes I feel the same). Sometimes however, one must admit that Firaxis was WRONG and the game could be better. This was the case with corruption which at 100% is way too excesive. It is much more realistic with 50%. Why don't you just try a "test" game with unit changes to see if it pleases you. Then when you play for real you won't feel so guilty!

TomCB: I have also tried to mod the pollution but there appears to be no way to change the "general" effects of it. I modded the improvements to half of their regular pollution value (most polluting improvements have a pollution of 2 except the Factory and Iron Works which have 4), but have yet to play the game with these new values.

[TomCB]

raguil_79
The Contras withdrew as a result of a deal. The left in exchange for the elections.
The Communists are gone and we all know they didn't retire willingly.
HOWEVER. I must say that I was extremely surprised at them and the Soviets, who allowed their power to slip away and did not do anything "crazy" to try to keep it.
That showed a great deal of restraint on the Soviets side anyway.

Didn't anyone ever read Mein Kampf?.......LOL
That gave me a very good laugh, thankyou.
No, no one did, it was like they were just begging for trouble.
At least Adolf was honest, he told everyone what he was going to do years ahead of time.

As far as political possibilities, if a nuke went off in the US or an allied country. I don't know of anything that would be out of the question.
Look at the level of freedoms the US government is taking away after a relatively minor attack like 9-11.
Don't look at destroying N Korea in response to a nuke attack as compensation, look at it revenge and a warning to others.

The agreement with Poland was to "help". not automatically declare war.
Hell, I have so many of these conversations going on right now I forgot what the debate was over and I don't even know if I care anymore.

As for pollution.
I only have real issues when the AI starts throwing nukes around like rice at a wedding.
I have maps that show a continent all orange.
When they nuke, they really nuke. They go freaking crazy with damn things.
The new values you speak of help alot as long as you build mass transits as soon as pops start getting to 13 or so.
DON'T wait to build the Mass Transits....BUILD THEM NOW.
I also found that by planting forest everywhere there is no irragation, it helps alot, or seems to anyway.

I would also like to be informed when a nations uses a nuke.
The AI always seems to know when I use one, but I don't know when they use 30 or so.

[Master Zen]

Do not confuse the Contras with other anti-Sandinista political forces. The Contras were an armed counter-revolutionary force, equipped and trained by the US in Honduras with the major objective of removing the Sandinistas by force, something which by 1987 they had failed to do. Violeta Chamorro, winner of the 1989 or 1990 elections WAS an anti-Sandinista, yet one could not have considered her a Contra, nor even remotely "attached" to them and proof is that the US was still not too friendly towards her government.

Revenge, psychologically speaking, is a personal compensation for an alleged wrongdoing, if it weren't, then no one would do it.

"Help" towards Poland was a de facto protection pact considering how tarnished the British and French reputuations were after the Czech debacle.

As for the Soviet withdrawl, I guess Gorby was smarter and less ego-centric than his predecessors. Amazing how a superpower ceased to be without going with a bang (and thank heavens, cuz we wouldn't be discussing our asses off if they had).

CIV3

Yep, Mass Transit is a MUST BUILD the moment you can. Recycling Centers can wait a while, I usually build a factory and a hydro/solar plant before, then build a manufacturing plant after. Usually there's no problem with the hydro because I do ANYTHING to get the Hoover Dam.

Speaking of wonders, I find the following ones to be absolutely necessary:

- Pyramids
- Great Library
- Magellan's Expedition
- Hoover Dam
- Women's Suffrage

I also like JS Cathedral but most of the time the AI beats me to it. I find Magellan's Expedition the truly vital wonder, I usually re-start the game if I don't get it.

[dannubis]

moved this post to the appropriate thread. Sorry hadn't seen it

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Whew! What a lotta debates.

Re: Britain vs. Germany over Poland... that cannot be said to be pre-emptive war, as it was the invocation of a defense treaty with Poland. However, it is quite ridiculous to assume that "pre-emptive" war is a new concept, as some claim. Not that I support Dubya or any pre-emptive warriors... I'm just saying that the concept dates back at least 6000 years.

CIV

Re: Changing the rules... I do intend to mod my default file to include the "privateer guerilla"... otherwise, as someone else noted, what is the point of the guerilla, besides to replace your medival infantry? In the real world, there are more guerilla forces involved in combat than conventional forces (these days).

In terms of changing my default file, I hope this is not too off-topic, but does anyone know where I can get a "Civ MultiTool" utility for PTW? I D/L'd the Civ MultiTool yesterday and was very impressed with it, but it doesn't seem to work with PTW.

[LionQ]

Sorry. I don't know.

[LionQ]

Originally posted by Jaybe

Which VERSION of Civ2 was that??

Just the "normal" version. You just move you damaged NavalUnit to an AlliedCity and the HealthBar was getting higher and greener.

[LionQ]

Huh??? Something is not right here. This post belong in another thread. Sorry, guys...