OpenCiv3 Discussion thread

[amjayee]

quote: Originally posted by The Joker on 04-05-2000 02:38 PM When playing SMAC I sometimes long back to the good old squares of Civ2, where you always knew what did what, and where you could easily see what every square gave (ressources).

This is quite understandable, but is it really necessary to know the exact amount of resources? Personally, the thing I hated about civ2 was that in every game you built dozens of cities, everyone of them almost identical to each other.

When I was designing my map system, my thought was, that the value of a certain city comes from many things. It's quite certain, that it is usually more preferable to build a city in a fertile spot than in a scarce one, but if that spot is geographically good or has some other advantages, like a good source of minerals nearby, It would be a good enough reason to build a city there. You can always transport food from other cities. Also, it should not a certainty that by building a city on a certain spot would automatically result in a large and important city after several hundreds of years. You have to build the glory of your city yourself.

In our civ game, the size of the city must not be the only meter of city quality, and there should definitely be serious disadvantages from cities being very large. Also the amount of resources produced shouldn't be as dependable from the city size as in civ2. Big cities have more workmen to provide, yes, but the upkeep of them should be larger, too.

I think the goal in making our own civ-game should be, that the player has more important and interesting things to do to than finding the best placement for the workmen in the city-screen and optimizing the resource-output of his empire, just to spend those resources to build a similar army he has built already for dozens of times, or building all those same spaceship parts over and over again.

quote: Originally posted by The Joker on 04-05-2000 02:38 PM In SMAC you were never quite sure how much an improvement gave, as it did different things in different types of terrain. And these types were never easy to see from each other. I am not saying anything definitely, just thinking, that maybe simplicity is better in this aspect of the game, making it possible for the player to focus on more interresting aspects, like energy management and keeping the civ together.

There was many errors in SMAC. We will work hard to make sure those errors are not done again.

Of course those are my own ideas. Our goal is to make the game, that could be easily adjusted to each players' needs. Almost certainly there will be available several "packages", ready-made versions of the game with varying levels of detail for those who haven't got the skills or time to adjust the game themselves, ranging from civ2-like to a simcity- or age of empires-like (but in global scale).

At this state of development, we have hardly started. Right now we are discussing the details of the game system. We cannot start the actual work, until we know what we are going to do. Read the messages to keep informed about the development.

Cheers,
amjayee aka Matti Eskelinen

[The Joker]

Has everybody just given up or what? Or has the discussion just moved to some place I am not aware of? Please tell me, I am not ready to give up just yet!!

[amjayee]

quote: Originally posted by The Joker on 04-10-2000 06:57 AM Has everybody just given up or what? Or has the discussion just moved to some place I am not aware of? Please tell me, I am not ready to give up just yet!!

Nobody's giving up. Right now, the discussion has concentrated majorly on the egroups mailinglist. It can be found at www.egroups.com/group/openciv3. You can read the messages sent there without registering, but if you want to take part to the conversation, you need to register or at least to subscribe to the mailinglist. That can be done by sending a blank email to openciv3-subscribe@egroups.com.

We are moving or project to another location at sourceforge, but for now you will stay tuned by using the addresses above.

Lately, our project has started to organize nicely. We have been planning an online meeting in the irc to decide on the main design issues. If you are interested in the openciv project, you should think about joining us. This is not only for Joker, but all you interested in making an opensource civilization game.

You don't need to be hard-core programmers, artists or stuff like that. In fact, most of us are amateurs. You can do a lot just by taking part to the conversation, though we could use more skilled programmers.

We should have our design outline ready in a few weeks. Then you can be told more about what the game will be like. Patience is needed, though-it's likely to take a long time before any kind of demo of the game will be available. In the meantime, why wouldn't you all help us making it?

Cheers,
amjayee IRL AKA Matti Eskelinen
amjayee@kolumbus.fi
[This message has been edited by amjayee (edited April 10, 2000).]

[VetLegion]

Uh, I have been reading these forums for a while now, and I think The Jokers ideas are among the most valuable ones, being usually well argumented.
It is only fair to update you people on current status, as amyaee did. I will also add, that the demo is not all that far away, but it will only be a framework. When we are agreed on it everyone will be back to actually designing the game, which we are trying _not_ to do now. We are talking mostly technical matters, as amyaee said, more programmers wellcome

Quit? No waaay, just getting warm
Patience? If we turn based people dont know about patience who does?

[Victor Galis]

Simo. turns spawn all evil (I mean actually moving at once, not the multi threading with the AIs).

That being said, I like the Map design... the way it looks, I have to look closer to see about the functionality. Also, How would different elevations look?

[amjayee]

quote: Originally posted by Victor Galis on 04-11-2000 06:45 PM That being said, I like the Map design... the way it looks, I have to look closer to see about the functionality. Also, How would different elevations look?

In the sprite map, the tiles with higher elevation will be darker (if all goes well). In the 3d map (which will be made in much farther future) the elevations will be visible, but not so clearly as in SMAC (that system looked actually quite bad). We haven't decided anything final about the map system, but that ought to change soon, I hope. The map is, after all, the key element in this kind of a game.

Cheers,
amjayee

[The Joker]

Why I think the OpenCiv3 discussion should be based at a forum. If not this then some other:

First of all, the amount of mails at egroups is getting enormeous. It takes very, very long to check them all, only to find that most of them are about some programming issue that I personally have no interest in nor knowledge of.

The beauty of a forum is, that you very easily can scroll through the posts to the stuff you find interesting.

Another advantage of this forum is, that other people can check out what we've done and become interested in it. This will propably make more people join us in stead of just closing off to the outer world.

Because of this I will continue to post my replys and suggestions here in stead of mailing it to egroups. I hope someone will still post stuff here as well as mailing it to egroups as this is the place I will check most frequently.


Here goes my reply to amjayee's design idea:

I completely agree on the idea of us making a prototype that is easily extendable. This is by far our greatest advantage compared to giants like Firaxis - our game can develop as long as people want to develop it. And if someone doesn't like a part of the game, they can change it.

I do not like the idea of having 2 completely different types of games (the civ and the survival mode). I want to be able to conquor the world, but I also want severe internal unrest. In stead of having 2 different types of games I think we should have just 1. But this one should be adjustable - there should be a slider bar with 5 or 10 settings. This will determine how hard it will be for a civ to survive in the long run. It should go from the lowest setting - the wellknown civ type with almost no unternal unrest (which players who like to conquor the world without too much trouble can choose) some middle settings where it is possible to conquor the world, but where you can not do so without a lot of planning (players like myself can choose this one) and a highest setting where it is litterally impossible to conquor the world - your only victory mode would be survival. This will not only make it possible for all players to find their own favorite, it will also make it possible for us to include it all into one game plus it will give those hardcore players who think deity is a walkover some real competition - trying to conquor the world on one of the higher settings.

I REALLY like the scenario option. The AI would have to be specifically made for everything to happend more or less at the right time (if the player really want to he should be able to change history significantly). In some far future an ultimate goal could be for us to make a scenario editor that everyone can use. This will give the game upwards of unlimited playability.

I like the interface ideas. I am not sure how they will work gamewise though. We will have to try a game with different interface options to find the best. The map likewise.

I don't think we should have ressources in the game (like AoE has). With the different ages it would be far too complex as loads of ressources is required. In stead I think we should use raingoons energy idea. It offers many of the advantages of ressources with much less micromanagement.

KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!

[The Joker]

To the OC3 team:

Nice to see that you will actually respon to my post...

[JacobH]

quote: Nice to see that you will actually respon to my post...

We did discuss your suggestion on using a webforum, instead of the mailinglist, at the meeting yesterday, and I wrote about it via the mailinglist.
As for your other suggestions, I do not personally have any strong feelings about them. I am working on another part of the game at the moment.

quote: First of all, the amount of mails at egroups is getting enormeous.

That would be the same if we only used a webforum.
At the meeting yesterday we decided to open more mailinglists with different topics. Hopefully, this way people who are not interested in the programming issues will not have to read those mails. The email-adresses should be posted here later by someone when they become active (there is a 6-24 hour delay).

quote: The beauty of a forum is, that you very easily can scroll through the posts to the stuff you find interesting.

IMHO, it is just as easy to scroll through emails if you recieve in digest-mode.

quote: that other people can check out what we've done and become interested in it.

No difference from a mailinglist here. People can read the posts both via their browser and their email-client. There is also an archive. Anyone can join without signing up (in contrast to Apolyton).

Mailinglists are faster for people with slow modems, and much less expensive. There are not any banners at SourceForge because they do not have to profit on their users. Also, people who do not have cookies turned on do not have to enter their username and password before they post. Emails can be arranged in threads, sorted, filtered, and put in seperate folders.

I think the advantage of using this forum, in addition to the mailinglists, is that this thread probably has higher exposure than the other sites have combined at the moment.

At the meeting Amjayee expressed interest in making the new web site which will be located at: http://civ3.sourceforge.net/

Jacob

[amjayee]

Ignore this message. For some reason it was shown here twice.


[This message has been edited by amjayee (edited May 01, 2000).]

[amjayee]

quote: Originally posted by The Joker on 04-13-2000 10:14 AM I completely agree on the idea of us making a prototype that is easily extendable. This is by far our greatest advantage compared to giants like Firaxis - our game can develop as long as people want to develop it. And if someone doesn't like a part of the game, they can change it.

We agreed on making the extendability and easy modification of the game one of its main features. I hope we will be able to make the system so, that it is easy to build upon. This would give more people opportunity to make the civ game of their dreams.

quote: Originally posted by The Joker on 04-13-2000 10:14 AM I do not like the idea of having 2 completely different types of games (the civ and the survival mode). I want to be able to conquor the world, but I also want severe internal unrest. In stead of having 2 different types of games I think we should have just 1. But this one should be adjustable - there should be a slider bar with 5 or 10 settings. This will determine how hard it will be for a civ to survive in the long run. It should go from the lowest setting - the wellknown civ type with almost no unternal unrest (which players who like to conquor the world without too much trouble can choose) some middle settings where it is possible to conquor the world, but where you can not do so without a lot of planning (players like myself can choose this one) and a highest setting where it is litterally impossible to conquor the world - your only victory mode would be survival.

These are good ideas. Of course there will not be two different games, those were just ideas... I think there will be much wider possibilities for the players to adjust the difficulty level of the game than in earlier civ games. And let's not talk about difficulty, but realism...
[/quote]

quote: Originally posted by The Joker on 04-13-2000 10:14 AM I REALLY like the scenario option. The AI would have to be specifically made for everything to happend more or less at the right time (if the player really want to he should be able to change history significantly). In some far future an ultimate goal could be for us to make a scenario editor that everyone can use. This will give the game upwards of unlimited playability.

I think the scenario and ai features are the key elements for this kind of game to succeed. Let's see how we are aple to accomplish that... My dream would be to make 6000-year scenario, where ai is adjusted to follow the historical events of our world as accurately as possible, with empires rising and falling. The player could then test, how he is able to deal with the real-world rulers and conquerors.

quote: Originally posted by The Joker on 04-13-2000 10:14 AM I don't think we should have ressources in the game (like AoE has). With the different ages it would be far too complex as loads of ressources is required. In stead I think we should use raingoons energy idea. It offers many of the advantages of ressources with much less micromanagement.

Actually, the resources are very much the same on each era, only changing the importance of each resource... and of course adding some new for modern times. And, there need not to be so much micro-management in dealing with resources. You should only provide your empire an access to certain resources, to be able to produce certain things, either by conquer or trade. Wouldn't it be much better to trade for something that you know you are really going to need, than for some stupid random trading goods?

All the micromanagement in gathering the resources and producing stuff could be hidden from the player by using local government (advisors). If the player wants to micromanage, he could of course deal with everything himself.

As have been said earlier, we shouldn't dump some idea just because someone doesn't like it. All good ideas should be implemented, and the player should be given a possibility to choose the game features as he pleases.

amjayee

quote: Originally posted by The Joker on 04-13-2000 10:14 AM KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!

We will!

[The Joker]

Jacob:

I feel like I am completely lost in this project. This is propably also due to lack of interest from my side in stuff posted outside this forum. I would still like to be a part of this project.

I still think there are advantages in posting if not everything then at least some kind of resume of what has been done here at Apolyton. The reason for this is, that many people visit this place, far more civ interested people than at Forge or egroups. And if we want to continue to get more people involved in this project (which we have to to get it above betalevel) we can't isolate ourselves at some remote webpage. This IS the civ community, and to get it's help we have to stay connected to it.

I tryed to subscribe to Forge, but for some reason the link to the subscribtion page didn't work. I will keep trying.

It seems to me that most of the stuff done at the moment is initial programming issues. I have no great interest in this, and I do not think I can be to much help in that area. My ideas for this game are all ones that can only be used when a playable prototype has been created. I will therefor not be very active in this untill then. Please correct me if I am wrong, or tell me if there's anything I can do without any programming skills.


amjayee:

Customization is the key!

Great that you agree that there should not be two completely different games. There should be several ways to adjust dificulty and realism in the game, so the player would be able to customize the game to excatly what he wants.

Scenarios:
That would be very great to have a scenario resembling the actual history of mankind. However, it would propably be very dificult and timeconsuming to make. I would suggest that we concentrated on making a scenariobuilder that would let everyone create a great scenario.

Ressources:
As long as it's simple and does not require lots of micromanagement it's cool for me!

KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!!

[JacobH]

quote: The reason for this is, that many people visit this place, far more civ interested people than at Forge or egroups.

Yes, indeed. I agree. Apolyton has much higher exposure than the other sites combined, and it offers related content like SourceForge. Indeed I think this forum is a great way to reach more people and get input, and I did not mean that we should not use Apolyton as well.

It is just that I work on this project daily and check my email about fifty times a day. If I was to do that with Apolyton, I would have to download a lot more, so I would not personally mind if at least the programming issues were mostly kept on one or more mailinglists. That way, I am able to respond with short notice when I am awake if it is required, and I recieve emails fairly quickly after they have been sent.

Jacob

[amjayee]

quote: Originally posted by The Joker on 04-18-2000 10:03 AM I feel like I am completely lost in this project... I still think there are advantages in posting if not everything then at least some kind of resume of what has been done here at Apolyton.

Right now, it seems that most of us are a little bit lost, since the decisions about the important technical issues are pending... We are going to have another meeting next weekend, and I'm hoping that all will be much more clear by then.

To inform people about the current progress of the project, I might be interested in making a report about those things at least weekly here in this forum. This way, the people interested in it could get info here, while discussing the ideas for this game. I will be in touch with the other members of the project, but I'm sure it will become true.

quote: Originally posted by The Joker on 04-18-2000 10:03 AM I tryed to subscribe to Forge, but for some reason the link to the subscribtion page didn't work. I will keep trying.

The secure server seems to cause some problems at least with IE. I have always got in, but it might require multiple tries. When you are in, change the url from https://blah... to http://blah..., that is, remove the "s". This will use the insecured server, and will remove all errors.

quote: Originally posted by The Joker on 04-18-2000 10:03 AM It seems to me that most of the stuff done at the moment is initial programming issues. I have no great interest in this, and I do not think I can be to much help in that area. My ideas for this game are all ones that can only be used when a playable prototype has been created... ...tell me if there's anything I can do without any programming skills.

This is perfectly understandable. I'm quite optimistic to get some kind of prototype ready in some months, but until then, you could discuss your ideas here, and possibly try to get others to join that conversation. At least I will be here, as the member of the team, to comment those ideas and to keep you updated about the current progress. Would you be interested in that?

quote: Originally posted by The Joker on 04-18-2000 10:03 AM Great that you agree that there should not be two completely different games. There should be several ways to adjust dificulty and realism in the game, so the player would be able to customize the game to excatly what he wants. Scenarios: That would be very great to have a scenario resembling the actual history of mankind. However, it would propably be very dificult and timeconsuming to make. I would suggest that we concentrated on making a scenariobuilder that would let everyone create a great scenario.

Customization and scenarios are all going to be there, and the scenario builder, too. At least eventually. About the history of mankind scenario, that is my dream, and when the game is ready, I will definitely start working on it. Until then, there are more important things to do. Like getting the game ready.

Thanks for the support of you all already in advance. Great ideas are as important as programming, for even if the game engine is as good as it gets, but there are no ideas to make a game upon, the engine is of no use. Continue your great work here!

amjayee

[The Joker]

Amjayee:

It would be great if you could make such a weekly resume of what has been done.

quote: Originally posted by amjayee on 04-18-2000 12:30 PM This is perfectly understandable. I'm quite optimistic to get some kind of prototype ready in some months, but until then, you could discuss your ideas here, and possibly try to get others to join that conversation. At least I will be here, as the member of the team, to comment those ideas and to keep you updated about the current progress. Would you be interested in that?

This was what I had in mind too.

I guess I will try to subscribe to Sourceforge once more.


Jacob:

I can see why mails can be easier accessible than forums, expeccially if you use it that much.


KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!!!