What is up with all the cheating by the computer

[bongo]

MosesPresley , take a look at the tests made by theniceone. They explain alot. The AI will appearently tolerate a smaller number of foreign troops in their territory.

If an AI send large troops over someone else's territory without a ROP they may choose to ignore it. I mean, why commit sucide to protect somebody else? I will also turn a blind eye to massive border violation if I cannot hope to win the war that will follow a demand of withdrawel. Or if I'm happy with the fact that these troops are on their way to kick someone else's butt.

[theNiceOne]

Also note that the AI civs will make ROPs with each other all the time, and can therefore freely move within each other's territory.

[MosesPresley]

Originally posted by theNiceOne
Also note that the AI civs will make ROPs with each other all the time, and can therefore freely move within each other's territory.

DUH! Did you read my original post?

[HAND]

I don't think the AI gangs up on the human player (the only one that gets paranoid!).

I'm in the latter stages of a game at the moment on a large 12 civ map (monarch) with only 5 civs left! All 7 dead civs were destroyed by the other AI!
The dead civs didn't just "roll-over" either. I witnessed the some of the battles involved spying from my personal figther plane, checking for threatening troop movements towards my borders!
It was a very long and bloody death for the defeated AI and a very painful victory for the winner AI which lost about 40 Modern armor and many Mech Inf.

If you want a real reason to feel paranoid play PTW!

[Coracle]

Originally posted by HAND

If you want a real reason to feel paranoid play PTW!

You lost me there. Are you saying the AI conspires even MORE against the human in PTW than in the basic game??


(BTW, I'll get PTW when it is in the $9.95 bin).

[The Puny Celt]

If you play with the Respawn AI Civs option, the AI civ always re-starts with an extra settler, worker(s) and some military units. I mention that in this thread because the first time I came across it, as I was about to wipe out the Roman's last city for the second time and was confronted with a lot more units than they could have produced in the space of a few turns, I shouted at my screen "You little cheat - caught you red-handed!"
But it's not really "cheating", it's just an advantage the AI gets under that option. And if you don't like it, you can always turn off the option.

[Zero-Tau]

Originally posted by The Puny Celt
If you play with the Respawn AI Civs option, the AI civ always re-starts with an extra settler, worker(s) and some military units. I mention that in this thread because the first time I came across it, as I was about to wipe out the Roman's last city for the second time and was confronted with a lot more units than they could have produced in the space of a few turns, I shouted at my screen "You little cheat - caught you red-handed!"
But it's not really "cheating", it's just an advantage the AI gets under that option. And if you don't like it, you can always turn off the option.

This only happens on the higher difficulty levels. The amount of units they get is equal to the starting bonus, BTW. The bonus is:
Monarch - 2 defensive and 1 offensive land units.
Emperor - 4 defensive and 2 offensive land units, and 1 worker.
Deity - 8 defensive and 4 offensive land units, 2 workers, and 1 settler.

@Coracle: No, he's talking about multiplayer. Humans conspire against each other.

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by theNiceOne

Thanks. Except for diplomatic relations, all those suspected cheats can quite easily be tested by manually making maps to test for specific situations.

I am now fairly well convinced that the Settler Rush after trading maps is an illusion (simulated intelligence). Many of you may remember this position:

http://www.zachriel.com/gotm11/bc2710-Borders.htm

Three Japanese cities completely block the Chinese from expanding south. I replayed the position, but instead of settling the south, I left it open and unexplored. Nevertheless, eventually the Chinese (and the French) lined up on my borders trying to pass. I played defense, blocking their movement over my land. When I finally got Map Making, I traded maps. They did not have information about the southern lands.

I think the illusion occurs because the AI apparently settles all available areas of the map that don't require crossing your territory first. By that point, most any player will have settled the territory in question, or the AI may have already discovered Map Making and sent a Galley around. The illusion is pretty strong, because suddenly my borders were full of rival Settlers, just about the time that Map Making was discovered.

The AI knows the entire map, all the time. But why doesn't the AI pop huts near its own borders? Does it "know" there are Barbarians within?

[Splint]

Regarding the ai tech trading - I remember a post a while ago where someone said there was another feature to help the ai that couldnt be accessed in the editor, namely that the selling ai will always accept whatever the buying ai can afford even if it is below the assigned ai tech trading value.

For instance if the ai tech trading value is 130 then it will sell a tech valued at 130 to another ai for 100 but if the buying ai can only afford 50 gold then the selling ai will acceppt that. According to the post, it will also accept nothing if the other ai is broke!

Sorry I can't remember who posted this ( it was a few months ago ) but I was wondering if anyone has any views on it ( e.g is it BS ). In my experience on regent the computer players on the same continent always trade all their techs to each other ( even broke ai's get all the techs ) and this would certainly explain how this happens.

[theNiceOne]

Splint: You only remember half of the story. On the difficulty settings in the editor there is a AI - AI trading bonus which is from 100 and upwards, and this setting affects how the AIs trade (which you have understood). This setting affects the minimum value the seller will accept - not the maximum value it will want, as you think.

Assume the setting to be 130 as in your example. This means that the AI owning a tech worth 130 gold will still want 130 gold from other AI, but if will accept down to 100 gold if this is the maximum the other AI civ can afford. It will not sell it for less than 100 gold though.

If it was as you suggest, that the AI would even give the tech for free, then a broke AI would always be on par with the tech leader - which is not the case.

[Splint]

In my experience, in the beginnning part of a game all the ai players are on a par regarding tech ( even the broke ones ). Every game I've played at regent they all give away their tech to each other and even an ai player with no money to buy anything from me can get 3 or 4 techs next round. This only stops if they start fighting each other.

I think u misundertood what I meant - the 100 in the example is the minimum the ai will accept ( I understood that idea ) but the post I referred to suggested that this is actually false and the ai will accept far less. I think the guy who posted it was suggesting that the designers were not exposing the full story of ai tech trading in the editor.

[Catt]

Originally posted by Splint
In my experience, in the beginnning part of a game all the ai players are on a par regarding tech ( even the broke ones ). Every game I've played at regent they all give away their tech to each other and even an ai player with no money to buy anything from me can get 3 or 4 techs next round. This only stops if they start fighting each other.

Perhaps the confusion lies in the "100 gold" terminology. It is not just "gold" that the AI will accept, but anything with a value of 100 gold. In the beginning part of the game, there is a lot of tech trading -- AIs trading one another (and the human) the free techs with which they started. If contact is wide-ranging, you also might have 4 or 5 different research paths -- voila, once again lots of tech to trade (even without gold). You might also notice a bit of a purt of tech trading when map-making strats to become diffused -- a new asset (maps) make their way into the trading circles.

Catt

[MiloMilo]

What's more, remember that as more civs get a tech, it becomes valued less by them, and thus cheaper for the civ trying to buy it. Plus, if an AI has researched half of a tech, it can get it for half-price. (Right?)

For what it's worth, I'm fairly sure that's an illusion, splint. I have a current game where three civs met each other and traded all their techs, and have easily been able to outresearch me when I don't trade with them. But the other two civs, on the other side of me from the three, never contacted us four biggies, fell behind, and now have now way to catch up, since they have nothing of value to trade.

The conclusion is in that last sentence: AIs with lots of tech will NOT give them to less-developed AIs with nothing of value to trade.

[HAND]

Originally posted by Coracle


You lost me there. Are you saying the AI conspires even MORE against the human in PTW than in the basic game??


(BTW, I'll get PTW when it is in the $9.95 bin).

I'm just saying that a human player is more likely to back-stab another human player with greater verocity and cunning than an AI player ever could!

Say you're in a PTW game with other human players...You are invaded by 4 other human players at once with no warning whatsoever, to grab your- numerous resources/luxuries/fertile land/strategic point etc(who needs a reason to invade!?). They had come to an agreement to carve up your land between themselves. That is a good reason to be paranoid. Similar things happened in Civ2 MP.