Suggestion For Making Marines More Useful

[vmxa1]

Why do we need to make Marines more useful? They have a limited use now, do we need them to beat back MA/MI?

[Wormwood]

I've tried my best to mod my game so that every single unit can be a viable, important unit at some time. That's why I improve my Marines unit. That and I love amphibious warfare

[TacticalGrace]

Originally posted by vondrack
Well, I have just had a very radical idea cross my mind... What about preventing all/certain/some (modern?) units from landing unless they land into a tile already occupied by a friendly unit (for at least one turn?)? Marines would then be useful for exactly the purpose they serve in the real world - establishing a beachhead.

I realize there would be several problems... and that it is not implementable in the current game context... well, just an idea...

This is already the case. You just station units along your coast. Without marines, nothing can land.

Of course before the invention of amphibious warfare you can line your coast with workers and they can't do a thing to you. This an exploit but the inclusion of an ancient-world amphibous unit would be a good idea. Any suggestions for a name?
perhaps there should be marine warriors and marine archers (same as their land-lubber counterparts but at double cost) which come with map-making (which should be called ship-building but there you go. I guess Firaxis thought it stupid to have land-locked civs from discovering ship-building)

[vondrack]

Umm... yes, I should have worded my idea a bit differently, I guess. I know that Marines are the only unit able to carry seaborne attacks... What I suggested was to let only Marines (and maybe some other special units, like Explorer, e.g.) land, nobody else - even if the landing tile was not occupied by any enemy unit.

[TacticalGrace]

Originally posted by vondrack
Umm... yes, I should have worded my idea a bit differently, I guess. I know that Marines are the only unit able to carry seaborne attacks... What I suggested was to let only Marines (and maybe some other special units, like Explorer, e.g.) land, nobody else - even if the landing tile was not occupied by any enemy unit.

Yes I understood what you said but think it is a bit too harsh and unrealistic. I mean why can't you sail your galley up to an uninhabited island and let your warriors go ashore?

[vondrack]

Originally posted by TacticalGrace
Yes I understood what you said but think it is a bit too harsh and unrealistic. I mean why can't you sail your galley up to an uninhabited island and let your warriors go ashore?

Good point. What about restricting landing into claimed (controlled) tiles only? Uninhabited islands (those outside anyone's territory) would still be landable even by warriors, while carrying out a seaborne invasion into an enemy controlled territory would require Marines or their counterparts in the given age...?

[TacticalGrace]

Originally posted by vondrack

Good point. What about restricting landing into claimed (controlled) tiles only? Uninhabited islands (those outside anyone's territory) would still be landable even by warriors, while carrying out a seaborne invasion into an enemy controlled territory would require Marines or their counterparts in the given age...?

This is getting better. But what about the viking landings in Britain, or the Battle of Hastings, or Roman occupation of Briton, or the battle of carthage? Under these rules that would be impossible.

If you don't put troops there to stop the invasion, then why is it any different to the uninhabited island? And if you DO put troops there then the rules work fine as they are (though possibly there is call for the opposite: an ancient age marine)

How does this sound though: landing should be resticted using the old Civ 2 ZOC rules. That way a defender could stop invasion with less than half the number of troops. Also artillery and air superiority units should auto-bombard approaching enemy ships.

I see what you are saying though. It's just too easy in civ to plonk huge armies down on the enemy beaches. However, this is mainly due to the speed of transports (and hence invulnarability to bombards) and due to civ3's total lack of resupply concept.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by TacticalGrace
I see what you are saying though. It's just too easy in civ to plonk huge armies down on the enemy beaches.

Exactly, landing seems too easy to me, especially in the later ages - just remember how difficult the D-Day was. I have no problem with warriors, swordsmen, and the like pouring out of galleys, but I simply feel that spitting MAs, MIs etc. ashore is somehow weird, especially when I usually land them onto mountain tiles... Your idea with ZOC sounds fine. Only Marines-like units might be allowed to ignore them... anyway, it was just a very rough idea...

[cgannon64]

Everyone always says Marines are important, because if you line your coast with workers, no one can land. But isn't lining your coasts with workers not very econmical? I think building a good defense is much cheaper than just lining the coasts with workers...who has honestly done that?

[TacticalGrace]

Originally posted by vondrack

Exactly, landing seems too easy to me, especially in the later ages - just remember how difficult the D-Day was. I have no problem with warriors, swordsmen, and the like pouring out of galleys, but I simply feel that spitting MAs, MIs etc. ashore is somehow weird, especially when I usually land them onto mountain tiles... Your idea with ZOC sounds fine. Only Marines-like units might be allowed to ignore them... anyway, it was just a very rough idea...

Making tanks wheeled will partially solve the landing on mountains problem. But only partially. If anybody has built a railroad on the mountain then I think the wheeled thing won't make any difference.

And you are right about Normandy invasions. Getting harbour facilities was essential before large-scale transfer of troops and heavy weapons could take place.

I know we can only dream, but the following rules would have been more realistic:
(1) No landings on mountains (except by marines?)
(2) Only one unit per turn may deploy onto a square without a harbour (need new terrain improvement buildable by workers). Does not apply to marines (?)
(3) Civ2-style ZOC applies to unloading ships. I think this should apply to marines as well.

[Felch]

I think any of these great ideas would be great for strengthening the underpowered Marines.