Yes - It's More AI CHEATING!

[Grumbold]

Since I rely almost exclusively on autosave (to resist the temptation to reload if I discover some things I could have done better) I doubt I can provide one. I am personally satisfied that the nation whose galleys I was trailing did not have the technologies. I'll check at home but if not, when I next get lucky enough to be so far ahead in a game that I can repeat the experiment I will keep my eyes peeled.

[narmox]

The galleys thing isn't a cheat. It's happened to me (very rarely) that my galleys would NOT sink on ocean. I think there's some kind of pattern (like sea/coast nearby), but I haven't really experimented to find that pattern.

Plus that pattern is probably just my luck

But it's not an AI cheat. Just probability. Look at the civilopedia, I'm sure it says something like "MAY sink" not "WILL sink".

[Grumbold]

Thats why I shadowed them for a while to see if their luck would run out. I've never had a galley or caravel cheat death for more than a couple of turns but these guys were sailing round the ocean for ages. I've said my piece. I'll wait now until I find if I have a save file at home to back it up.

[Catt]

* Sigh *

A good rule of thumb before someone throws out the allegation of cheating is to preserve the evidence for others to examine. If you don't have the evidence, don't post your question with a title of "cheating" - bide your time until you see the next instance of cheating and be sure to save some evidence. I mean, if the AI cheats like this in one game, surely it will do so again, right? It didn't cheat in this instance simply because it really wanted to win that game, did it?

A saved game allows others to explain how and why something happened - to the benefit of all readers. A thread on "cheating" just spreads more (possibly) misleading and inaccurate information about the game.

Catt

[Thrawn05]

Galleys will NOT sink in sea tiles when you the Great Lighthouse
Galleys will NOT sink in sea tiles when you research Astronmy
Galleys will NOT sink in ocean tiles when you research Navigation/Magnitism.


Just what I've seen when I play my games.

[Gastric ReFlux]

Originally posted by Catt
* Sigh *

A good rule of thumb before someone throws out the allegation of cheating is to preserve the evidence for others to examine. If you don't have the evidence, don't post your question with a title of "cheating" - bide your time until you see the next instance of cheating and be sure to save some evidence. I mean, if the AI cheats like this in one game, surely it will do so again, right? It didn't cheat in this instance simply because it really wanted to win that game, did it?

A saved game allows others to explain how and why something happened - to the benefit of all readers. A thread on "cheating" just spreads more (possibly) misleading and inaccurate information about the game.

Catt

Why bother providing proof? I mean, shouldn't my simple assertion be good enough! There is no freaking way I could have overlooked something!

[JohnM2433]

Originally posted by Gastric ReFlux
Why bother providing proof? I mean, shouldn't my simple assertion be good enough! There is no freaking way I could have overlooked something!

You may know that. We don't. If we are to presume the AI to be innocent until proven guilty -- which should pretty much be a requirement to call something a "known cheat" -- you must be presumed to be an incompetent shmuck until proven otherwise. It's nothing personal.

"Spectacular claims require spectacular evidence", or something like that. Claims of AI cheating may not really be all that spectacular , but what is said of spectacular claims can also be said of proof.

[Theseus]

John, I have a feeling that GF is being sarcastic.

[Catt]

GF is defintiely being sarcastic (and keep an eye out for his posts - he's one of the funniest posters around!).

[JohnM2433]

I'll take your word for it, although the sarcasm doesn't seem to register with me, even in retrospect. Am I missing some of the context here?

[Theseus]

Well, I had to think about it too, but when I realized that GF had not previously posted on this thread, and was therefore being inexplicably huffy...

[Gastric ReFlux]

Originally posted by Catt
GF is defintiely being sarcastic (and keep an eye out for his posts - he's one of the funniest posters around!).

Well thank you Catt.

Yes, I was being sarcastic. If there's something I've observed from a long time of observing this and the CFC board, it's that nearly all claims of the AI cheating have not been supported. In some cases, when a save file has been posted, it has been shown that AI is simply making efficient use of the game mechanics and engine in a way we humans hadn't previously thought of using ourselves. There was, for example, at CFC a thread where it originally looked like the AI got a free unit when capturing a city at Deity level. Instead, careful study showed that the AI was playing by the rules--using its turn of production to rush a new unit. That also showed that the game turns have this pattern within them: Human production, AI production, Human moves units, AI moves units.

So it's extremely frustrating to have people make extraordinary claims, then provide nothing in support of those. We lose a chance to possibly find out something useful about the game, and instead are left with claims that the AI is like an evil and retarded person who uses sneaky and insidious methods to cheat.

Yeah, sneaky and insidious. Pfft.

[Jaguar]

Here is what I think happened, from the information given.

1. AI starts building pikemen
2. AI discovers gunpowder. The pike cities continue with their pikemen. A player is allowed to continue building an obsolete unit if you started it before you got the tech for the upgrade. That is what the AI did. Probably because it wanted the defenses quickly.
3. AI starts the musketman
4. Its sources of Iron and Saltpeter get cut off
5. The pikemen and musketman finish.

Either that or:
1. AI starts building pikemen
2. Iron Gets cut off
3. AI finishes pikes
4. AI discovers Gunpowder and starts musketman
5. Saltpeter gets cut off
6. Musketman is finished.

[Hurricane]

Originally posted by Jaguar Warrior
2. AI discovers gunpowder. The pike cities continue with their pikemen. A player is allowed to continue building an obsolete unit if you started it before you got the tech for the upgrade. That is what the AI did. Probably because it wanted the defenses quickly.

I´m almost certain that this is not the case. In a recent game I was the egyptians, and just before I bought Chivalry I put most of my cities on producing War chariots (with the intent of using this particular exploit), but to my surprise, every city auto-switched to Knights.

I also remember from other games that cities that I have completed Much Inf the very same turn I discover Computers, which is due to the fact that cites auto-switch from Infantry to Mech inf.

[Gen.Dragolen]

Ahem (from your Governor's quarter)

Hurricaine et al,

Don't forget that the default City Governor settings will affect production, too.

If you don't have the "Produce Last Unit" turned on when it comes up to the next item in your production queue, that will see the newest available unit going into production. Nothing like a newly captured 1 pop village trying to built a tank...

And like everyone else, I have a hard time keeping in mind that the AI Civ's all function as the programmers designed them to do: they consistently exploit the rules to their fullest advantage, and make use of things like Mobilization, and will pull off trades that you will never, ever get even a sniff at. They do so because the only way you can build the logic for a game like this. Programming requires hard and fast rules. Where to build, what to produce and when to do it, which leaves the AI Civ's more vulnerable than any experienced human opponent who adapts to changing cirumstances. You would get one hell of a headache if you had to trace the logic tree for any of the AI decisions.

Soren and coy at Firaxis have done a commendible job at making a computer opponent into a nasty, cut-throat backstabbing SoB/Bstrd, and on a standard map, you have 8 of them with which to contend. Yes, there are imbalances in game play and predictible exploits so that's why you post saved games and use the Multi-tool to check out settings. It will always help to have another set of eyes look at a problem. I rely on the limited espionage functions to determine my enemies disposition as much as my gold allows. Try writing down some of your intel information instead of relying on memory, and you'd be amazed at what you will find.

And you should try doing some reading on strategy. Books like The Art of War, the Book of Five Rings and The Prince. Life isn't fair and when others are all trying to out hussle and cheat to get ahead of you, you need to know yourself, know your enemies and make your plans accordingly. I know that when I get frustrated enough playing to start throwing heavy objects like couches or barbells across the room, I'm about 10 seconds away from realizing what I should have been doing in the first place.

Just whining that the game is cheating only shows you have a lot to learn about this game. I still learn new things every game I play, and despite loosing many close battles that I think/feel I should have won, I still win the war in the end. This is a complicated thinking game and not some simple Unreal Tournament frag session.

(Spleen fully vented)


D.