Yes - It's More AI CHEATING!

[C Chulainn]

My Persian neighbours are technologically advanced but vulnerable to a military attack, for the reason that they have only one source of iron and one source of saltpetre. I decide to attack them and immediately cut them off from these by pillaging the roads. It's now simply a matter of attacking their cities, defended only by spearmen, with my knights...
But I discover the Persians cheating in two ways:
Firstly, they upgrade some of their spearmen to pikemen. This is impossible - they have only a small amout of gold which wouldn't pay for it (and they don't have Leo's Workshop - the Zulus do) They aren't levied under the republic rules either, because they're veterans, not conscripts. The AI has simply given itself free upgrades.
Secondly, they somehow manage to build a musketeer just in time for my massive attack on the key city of Sardis. With no saltpetre. The only Civ with spare saltpetre is the English, and checking with my foreign minister reveals the Persians have no contact with the English. The AI has simply given itself more free upgrades.
You may call this a moan if you like, but as far as I'm concerned this sort of cheating is inexcusable. I have a good, valid strategy, based on the rules of the game, which ought to pay dividends - instead the AI is cheating and punishing good play.

[kimmygibler]

This seems somewhat dubious. How do you know that the ai doesn't have enough gold to upgrade its units? It could be getting gold and using it on the same turn. For example from goodie huts, barbarians, or trade with other civs.

The musketman may have been started before you cut them off from saltpeter. If you start building a unit, loss of a needed resourse doesn't cancel the unit. Or there may be saltpeter underneath an enemy city. (Try right clicking on every city)

I've never seen this sort of cheat before there could be an explaination.

[vondrack]

Re: Yes - It's More AI CHEATING!

Even if you cut your enemy from the strategic resources, they will be able to rush/finish units they started producing when they HAD the resource. What happened probably was that Xerxes rushed units in production. Could it be so?

[Coracle]

Yes, we know. The cheating has long been inexcusable in so many ways. It has all been posted. I especially hate teleporting settlers magically jumping across my civ and setting up towns on tiles they should not know exist.

The sneaky, insidious way the AI cheats is a major annoyance. If it didn't do so many dumb illogical things it would NOT have to cheat so much.

I think it's time Firaxis submitted a list of all AI cheats, with a way to turn them off. Just increase the combat results odds in the AI's favor to compensate, as Civ 2 did.

You summarized well our objections:

I have a good, valid strategy, based on the rules of the game, which ought to pay dividends - instead the AI is cheating and punishing good play.

Stop the cheating in PTW!!!

[Thrawn05]

Originally posted by kimmygibler
Or there may be saltpeter underneath an enemy city. (Try right clicking on every city)

Or Shift+Ctrl+M and remove the cities. It's better.

[JohnM2433]

Not to aggravate you even more, but... if the Persians upgraded the spearmen after you cut off their iron supply, that's cheating too, as they need iron for the upgrade. Assuming that there isn't some iron hidden underneath one of their cities (check and see, just to make sure), in an unseen connected city/colony, etc.

In fact, the other stuff would be easy to write off as rushing, but upgrading without the necessary resource would quite clearly be cheating.

Then again, how are you sure that the pikemen were upgraded, and not built? Did you investigate the cities before and after the alleged cheat? Doing so would at least give us some idea of what is going on...

[C Chulainn]

Replies to the doubters:
1. I knew how much gold the Persians had because it tells you when you go to the negotiation screen.
2. There was no saltpetre underneath any cities; I used Civ Tools to check the number of resources just to make sure - 7 Saltpetre: I controlled 3, the English 2, the Zulus 1 and the Persians 1 (which I seized)
3. I saw the Persian cities with their defenders before and after the declaration of war. The pikemen all appeared instantly. Ka-boom.
4. You can't finish what's started if you no longer have the resource; you get switched to a more primitive unit (seen it happen). Rushing would have cost the Persians money, which they didn't have.

[FrantzX]

Your #4 is wrong. I know that for a fact.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by FrantzX
Your #4 is wrong. I know that for a fact.

FrantzX is right. #4 is incorrect.
You need the resource to START building a unit, NOT to complete the production (the same goes for RRs - if your worker starts laying a RR track and you lose coal before he's done, he will still get the job done.

[RedBird]

Originally posted by C Chulainn
Replies to the doubters

Do you have a .SAV (preferably from before when you started the attack) you can post?

[Mad Cleric]

Yes, I have seen the AI cheat.

When I was playing as the Aztecs on a one V. one game with the Americans on Monarch, something curious happened. When I looked at their city one turn befor I attacked with Swordsman, it said there was only a warrior, so, naturaly I thought "what can stop me?"
SO, I came in, and the pop of the city was only 1, and I thought that surely 3 swordsman could out do a warrior, even on a hill. SO, I moved them in and delcared war, something odd happened, I looked at the city, and there it was, a spearman, they had obviously pop-rushed it from a city with only one pop to begin with, now, I wish I could do thaT!

Well anyways, the AI can cheat you when you are making early ancient age attacks, that is why you have to use a two movement unit or they'll pop-rusha spearman from nothing.

[Mad Cleric]

Hm, when I started playing this game about three weeks ago, I consider almost every move by the AI a cheap one or a cheating one of the rules, but now, I have learned that the AI only makes a few rule infractions, it just irritates me when the AI pop-rushes a unit from a original pop of one.

[dexter4dxm]

perhaps they were building an improvement in that city, and when they saw attackers coming they switched production to a good defensive unit and already enough shields have been provided so it seems like it was rushed

[Todd Hawks]

Or maybe the city reached pop 2 and then the AI pop-rushed the spearman. Or it moved it in from somewhere else. Post a save game and we can check what may have happened (and if it really is inexplicable = cheat)

I've seen so many claims of the AI cheating but they are all very vague and there seems never to be a save game to prove it.

I myself have never seen the AI cheat like this. If the AI really cheated, it would do it more often and there would be more than just one or two lonely people posting some kind of weird AI cheat every few weeks.

The AI knows the map and maybe the position of your units but I don't think it cheats about production, research, combat or anything like this (apart from the difficulty level bonuses of course.)

[SABRA]

Is there a save .