I can't believe this..

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by HappySunShine
Obviously luck plays a small part, but strategic planning is what is the main factor.

Absolutely right! In the example of John Paul Jones, luck won that battle, but strategic considerations won the war. First, the poor skills of the British in keeping the colonialists happy resulted in an unwanted revolution. Then, the poor evaluation of the capabilities of the Americans resulted in too small a garrison being assigned by the British. Washington's strategy of fielding a regular army but always keeping it just out of reach of the British was crucial. And finally, Ben Franklin's diplomatic efforts resulted in the French entering the war on the American side, the fruits of which were evident with some finality at Yorktown.



So when you move your frigate and it loses to a merchant vessel, that's "luck." But when you convince the French to enter on your side with their high-tech weapons, that's strategy. Both are a part of war.

[sabrewolf]

i know there are statistical values (someone did an extensive test and proved it right).

but i do have the feeling, that hitpoint-wins and -losses are not totally random, but grouped a bit.

you can lose with 2 elite cavalry against one spearman, but then sometimes your 2 regular warriors beat the 2 fortified regular hoplites...

as the second poster said: use overwhelming forces... or otherwise use artillery...

[HappySunShine]

The fact that the only way to win is to use overwhelming force says something about the depth of the game and just how much strategy is in it.

So when you move your frigate and it loses to a merchant vessel, that's "luck."

When I continually get those results that's no longer luck, that's an intended game design that is obviously flawed. I think it shows the incompetence of Firaxis.

[player1]

It's not all about random factor.

Sometimes there are things, which people somtimes forget.

Units have 3-5HPs, units have attack and defense values.

Winning the battle depends from both attack, defense AND BONUS factors.

And that's all.

Higher attack vaule doesn't mean that you'll ALWAYS win battle against lower enemy defense value (on the other way something like that happns in Civ2 way to often, exept if you attack with wounded unit).



Bonus factors are various DEFENSE bonuses.

Terrains bonus: from 10% to 100%
Fortyfy: +25%
Walls: +50%
7+ pop: +50%
13+pop: +100%

Things like Knight losing from Spearmen are pretty possbile.
Fortified spearmen on defense wuill have at least +35% defense bonus (10% terrain, 25% fortify)

That makes it defense of 2.7

4 vs 2.7 gives much room for victory of defender.
It won't happen to often, but it's possbile.

When cities start getting 7 or more pop, defensive bonuses become even more drastic (and some poeple forget that).


P.S.
Now 4 vs 1 result is RARE, but can happen.
It happend to me just several times, and I played Civ3 for months.
On the other hand, 4vs2.5 or more are much more common.

And you need to make STRATEGY to combat that difficulty.

STRATEGY, not TACTIC.

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by HappySunShine
When I continually get those results that's no longer luck, that's an intended game design that is obviously flawed. I think it shows the incompetence of Firaxis.

A Veteran Frigate will beat an Elite Galley three-fourths of the time -- on average. That means an Elite Galley will win sometimes. You cannot predict which time, though. Most importantly, by knowing this exact percentage, it is possible to plan strategically. Indeed, we have much more information than real strategic planners have. We know the exact percentages. They don't.

The mistake the Serapis made was letting the Bonhomme Richard get close. If they had used their superior mobility, they could have bombarded from a safer distance. However, they were down wind, so they would have had to break off and try to outmanuever the Bonhomme Richard. The British didn't want to be bothered with such cowardly nuances, trusting to their superior firepower, and not realizing that the Americans weren't about to enter an artillery battle, but were prepared to lash and board.

Bombard from a safe distance before allowing the battle to close. A Veteran Frigate v. a damaged 3hp Elite Galley has a 90% chance of success.

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by HappySunShine
The fact that the only way to win is to use overwhelming force says something about the depth of the game and just how much strategy is in it.

1. there are other victories than military vicotories. RTFM.

2. you don't need overwhelming force to win. I often use smaller forces to take wonder cities or resources. Sure, if you want guaranteed victories while destroying an entire civ in one turn, you might want an overwhelming force, but that is too boring for me, and has less challenge. Maybe that says something about the depth of your strategic thinking if all you can do is use mass strikes to win.

[reefer addict]

ive seen the combat engine spit out unreal results almost every game i play. it seems to me that the ai gets a bonus on emperror and diety when fighting. if i attack a spearman, no defense bonuses, with 5 vet archers i probally lose,whereas the ai has no problem taking out my fortified,behind walls musketman with an archer and not even suffer damage( with hp increased to 3/6/9/12 ).
if it happened once i right it off as luck, but it happens so often that ive come to expect it

[Jon Shafer]

Increase the HP. I find the default HP values far too low IMO.

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Trip
Increase the HP. I find the default HP values far too low IMO.

Absolutely. Increasing the hitpoints means that sword will much more often destroy spearmen, tanks will nearly always beat muskets, and terrain advantages are much more pronounced.

If you don't like the current combat values, please feel free to modify them, or download one of many great mods. Please.

[DrFell]

Happy is thinking of MP, where a ton of mods cause havok. There needs to be an option to double the hitpoints of units (regular=6hp, veteran=8hp, elite=10hp) for MP, similar to the accelerated production option.

[HappySunShine]

Wow player1, thanks for quoting the manual for me. You have an amazing knack for pointing out the obvious. I'm well aware of what the defense values are, but next time I need an update I'll look you up.

[spy14]

Yes, some "freak" results happen in real life, such as the HMS Serapis incident that was mentioned. But that was one incident of a frigate beaten by a merchant vessel, how many more can be named? Very few. OTOH, how many merchant vessels were beaten by frigates in this period? Hundreds. In the game the frigate will lose 50 - 60% of the time. Unless its a AI frigate, then it will win....

[MOHonor]

Originally posted by HappySunShine
Wow player1, thanks for quoting the manual for me. You have an amazing knack for pointing out the obvious. I'm well aware of what the defense values are, but next time I need an update I'll look you up.

Wow...zero to jerk in 7 posts.

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by spy14
Yes, some "freak" results happen in real life, such as the HMS Serapis incident that was mentioned. But that was one incident of a frigate beaten by a merchant vessel, how many more can be named? Very few. OTOH, how many merchant vessels were beaten by frigates in this period? Hundreds. In the game the frigate will lose 50 - 60% of the time. Unless its a AI frigate, then it will win....

A Veteran Frigate will beat a Veteran Galley 82.67% of the time -- better than four out of five on average.

Civulator

http://207.191.20.18/civ3/lwc-civulator.html

[lockstep]

Originally posted by DrFell
Happy is thinking of MP, where a ton of mods cause havok. There needs to be an option to double the hitpoints of units (regular=6hp, veteran=8hp, elite=10hp) for MP, similar to the accelerated production option.

In that case, you also have to adjust (double) all RoF values, and the defense bonus of citizens/improvements. Still should be feasable.

BTW, if the majority of players thinks that the current hitpoint model is insufficient, I'd rather like to see a change in the standard game than an additional setup option.