I can't believe this..

[Ming]

Some really interesting "on topic" posts...

[Jon Shafer]

Originally posted by Ming
And to think that this thread used to have some good discussion...

You ever thought that? Wow, you're losing your touch Ming.

HappySunShine, why is it that you think that playing the game as it was made to be played is a 'rookie tactic'? Is anything that takes advantage of the game's lack of balance really necassary to be an 'elite' player? Do you value any real strategy, instead of a linear tried and true system? Do you really garner so much pleasure from exploiting a fairly broken system, then criticizing everyone else because they don't do the same?

*Trip waits for more comments about being a whining rookie

You think at least he would have a bit of creativity in his insults, for being such a god-like being.

[Velociryx]

Vondrack - Thank you! Some days, it's harder than it looks....*sigh*

Ming - Bear with me brother, this post is entirely on-topic and not a personal attack at all. Given your earlier comment, I wanted to say that explicitly.

Sunshine - I'm gonna be honest with you here, cos I'm, by nature, an honest fellow. My apologies in advance if some of this stuff isn't what you wanna hear, or if it bruises your ego, but it's stuff you really oughta know (some of it, in fact, you should already know, being a bright--if somewhat chaffing and angst filled--young man of twenty).

First off, get it straight. God, you're not. Or, in the Southern vernacular, you ain't it, kiddero. Sorry. I dunno much about your past history, but its clear from your win record in MP that you've got talent. That's a good thing, but let's put it in perspective, shall we?

In case you've forgotten, Civ is a GAME! To borrow a phrase from you, "always has been, always will be."

As such, it doesn't matter to me that you have good ideas and a deep understanding of MP dynamics or not. It doesn't matter to me if you've been scrupulously honest for most of your gaming "career" or not. That you have been accused of, admitted to, and apparently (only surface research here, btw) proved of cheating at ANY point in your gaming "career" TOTALLY blows every ounce of credibility you might have had where I'm concerned.

It's one thing to reload or whatever in SP. If you like cheating at Solitaire and then patting yourself on the back for a stellar win, that's your bag. But to do so in an MP setting just shatters credibility IMO. I specifically DO NOT bring this up to make a personal attack, but to point out to you in terms just as clear as I can possibly make them why you have credibility problems. It's the abovementioned, coupled with your abrasive (to use a non-censored word) attitude.

On a scale of 1-10, civ's combat model has a difficulty rating of MAYBE 2.5, when compared to....pretty much anything in the wargame genre. So....mastery at the rush game in Civ is HARDLY a crowning achievement if you talk to anybody who's ever played anything besides Civ-style games. Play People's General, when you get some time. It's a really good "entry-level" wargame that'll give you a solid idea of what I'm talking about. The combat model in PG blows the doors off Civ's in terms of robustness and complexity (and it's just an "entry level" wargame). Win a few 6:1 odds scenarios as the Americans vs. the Chinese onslaught and you'll be off to a reasonably good start. Till then, you're all smoke and mirrors, pal.

So you're good at the rush game in Civ2. And that makes you God because??? There's about as much skill involved in the rush mechanics in a game with no supply lines, no disruption, no increasing support costs, etc. etc. as there is to (borrowing another little snippet from you) popping blackheads. If you need to feed your ego, you could do a good deal better than that.

I'm also gonna take the opportunity to tell you a few things I KNOW you don't know.

I know you don't know them because IF you knew them, your behavior would be different than it is now. Oh sure, I can predict with almost absolute certainty that you're gonna reply to this note that you DO, in fact know all about the things I'm getting ready to tell you (or even that the things I'm about to tell you are utter nonsense), but deep down, you'll know it's not true.

You'll know, and I'll know.

These are small things, but I believe that if you give them some thought, you will find that you agree with them.

1) Strategy serves no one. Fans of, practicioners of, devotees of strategy serve IT. Strategy was here a long time before you were a twinkle in your daddy's eye, and it'll be here long after you are dust.

2) Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING is either strategic or tactical, in one form or another. You didn't realize until reading these words, but THIS....our ongoing conversation on this very forum is a lesson in strategy. You've been daydreaming and not paying attention through the bulk of it....one of the reasons you didn't realize till just now.

3) The ultimate expression of strategy is....NOTHING! Sun Tzu knew that, and in case you didn't realize it, he's your better. The best battle is the battle that is never fought. The ultimate expression of strategy is not to fight at all. EVER. How's that line up with your little Rush-O-Meter?

4) Poetry trumps strategy, every time. EVERY single time. If there is strategy inherent in all that we do, then it is there for some larger purpose. Poetry, in this case then, is not (necessarily, though it certainly can be) taken literally, but is a word used to express the amalgamation of all that is good in life. The reason that strategy exists in every fiber of every thing is to keep it safe, so that we may enjoy it. Practitioners of Strategy then, are the guardians of all the good things in life. Doesn't matter if you're playing a game or doing it for real in the Persian Gulf or anywhere else. Strategy guards the gate of all that's good. If you never allow yourself to forget that....if you approach life (and your gaming) with that in mind, then everything about your strategic thinking will improve tenfold, and you will find that your achievements and stories are enduring.

I'll give you two examples at opposite ends of the spectrum:

1) The Huns. Fierce warriors. Awesome fighters, and, one of the better examples I can think of in the real world to parallel your rush game. Lightning fast and brutal. And where are they now?

I'll tell you where. They were ushered off the world stage by their betters.

They are no more.

2) The Scots. Now, taken as a population, the Scots are NOBODY! (no offense intended to the fine and noble Scots!) They don't represent a significant portion of the global population, and they never had a globe-spanning empire, but we remember them, and their stories are woven into a great many areas of our (western) history.

Why?

Because they had heart. They had soul. They were the underdogs in a fight they should not have won. They, a rag-tag collection of ill-armed peasants stood toe to toe with one of the mightiest armies in all of Europe....and they won. They won on account of luck, and skill....and heart. Poetry.

You can laugh at that all you want, but I promise you that if you look around you, you'll find a LOT more Scottish influence in the world than Hunnish(?).

Of course, you can also freely ignore every word I have written here in this long and rambling post. I've been told I don't much know what I'm talking about....

Respectfully,
-=Vel=-

PS: Since Civ3MP is not out yet, I think it'd be safe to classify you as a Rookie too....yes?

[Ming]

I guess some people really do want a restriction

[Jon Shafer]

I was going to say the same thing Vel, but I thought it was a given (about the post being on-topic and free of insults).

C'mon Ming, the subject of this thread is Civ 3 strategy (errr... something like that... he started the thing, don't ask me ), and I didn't insult him at all. I just asked him to reply to his thoughts on strategy. If he wants to play the game, then I'll do it to. He just needs a thicker skin, right?

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Ming
Some really interesting "on topic" posts...

Ming, would you remind us what the topic was...?
This thread got so long and excited that most of us have probably forgotten...

Sure, kidding, but... I have just re-read the first post and frankly, I couldn't find too much merit in there. If it was not Happy/Eyes who posted it, you would probably agree it's just another dose of whining inspired by unfavorable dice rolls, wouldn't you?

There were many fine counter-arguments given, but Happy responded mostly with derogatory comments about rookies, incompetent strategists etc. The real arguments were pretty soon used up, so the flame war was the only thing keeping this thread so much alive...

Sure, we were all wasting time, so it's okay you stepped in. But I guess it is rather difficult to add anything "on topic" that was not already said. What about closing the thread instead? I'd think it would be better now.

---

Hmph... just previewed my post and noticed Vel's new post. I am glad the thread was not closed before Vel posted. Not because of your thanks, Vel... but because of it was nice reading. Poetry? Is that the word you used? Yep... your posts sound like poetry to me sometimes...

[Ming]

I see two people who are asking for a restriction... does anybody else wish to join them?

[Velociryx]

Thanks again for the kind words, Vondrack!

Actually yes....in my downtime (a rare, and wonderful thing these days), I *do* dabble a bit in poetry....posted a couple of my collections a LOOOONG time ago in SMAC fiction, of all places....made me smile that it was well-received there.

*fond memories of SMAC-filled days*

But....to remain on topic....yes! Strategy in Civ3. Despite some claims to be found here, there are a number of sharp minds posting and thinking about strategic issues in Civ3. It's true, Civ3 is a flawed gem of a game, and there are limitations on how far we can take an exploration of strategy, but within those bounds, there's quite a lot that can be said, and quite a lot that can be learned.....

-=Vel=-

[Theseus]

First, I want to echo vondrack, that was Vel at his most elegant... "poetry trumps strategy" might have been said by a Churchill, or a Jefferson (re gameplay... I am staying away from all personal interactions).

Second, I do have a comment OT.

Although I've been a Civ fan since Empire, I've never played MP. This discussion (!) inspired me to check out the Civ2-MP forum... man, I do have to admit it's a different world!

Specifically, HSS is busting on the Civ3 combat system in the context of MP... as opposed to SP, vondrack, and he's right, that is a fairly new subject.

I'm definitely a 'rookie' on this subject, but I get the sense that the problem is in duels, rather than full-blown, more than 2-player MP.

HSS, I think I get it, but if you look back at the SP threads on this issue (combat model), and you can accept that this is just the way it's gonna be, then I would suggest that you adopt the attitude that many of us have... Firaxis introduced uncertainty to incorporate the 'fog of war.' It's nothing more than that, and the player, whether in MP or SP, needs to consider such in devising strategy. The simplest change is clearly using more units... but I would expect that MP players of high caliber will come up with even better strats.

Yup, Civ3 presents some changes... I expect the best of us all, whether 2 or 3, whether SP or MP, to roll with it, and apply our skills to mastering the evolution of the game.

I look forward to Civ3-MP... I fully expect to get my head cut off at first, but I hope I can improvise, adapt, and overcome. I saw on one of the Civ2-MP threads that the ultimate goal is to be a master of all variations... when the time comes, that's where I will strive, accepting the framework of the game.

[Capt Dizle]

God, Vel, you just dissed Hungary.

[Jon Shafer]

Actually, the only Hun influence over Hungary is the name.
Hungary was initially settled by Romans and Germans, later by Moravians, followed by the Magyar tribe (Finno-Ugric). Though the Huns did occupy the area for a while in the 3rd and 4th centuries AD, they were expelled by the Germans shortly thereafter, and then mainly slavic tribes after that.

[Capt Dizle]

I should play more EU and I would know stuff like that.

[Jon Shafer]

Ahhh, beautiful EU.

To know that stuff it also helps being a history major.

[Velociryx]

EU! A simply *exquisite* game! Civ would go far in taming the rush beast if they but made use of the "badboy" rating....of course, this would require more civs on the table to work well.....

And the event engine! OMG that just rules! Nothing like thinking you've got everything under control, only to have your nagging nobles come to you demanding more rights....Ahhhh, but it's GOOD to be da King!

-=Vel=-

[Jon Shafer]

And in EU you can't just 'rush' in MP.

Well you can, but you'll lose miserably.