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  • Culture Flip Formula

    I decided to cut this from the culture flip debate thread, in case anyone was interested and didn't feel like plowing through that thread.

    Based on Soren's (post 1.21 I think) comments in this thread I came up with the following formula:

    Chance of flip = ({[(# of foreign nationals, resistors count double)+(# of square in radii under foreign control)] * [2 if more culture in city by foreign civ, otherwise 1] * [2 if in civil disorder, 1/2 if in WLTK day, otherwise one] * [(Foreign civ total culture)/(Your civ total culture)]} - {1 per garrisoning military unit}) * / (Capitol distance factor {500 to 8000, average 2000})

    According to Soren's comment in this thread, this chance is discrete for each civ's presence of territorial squares or citizens, and a garrison counts against ALL civs. So if you have a city with two other civ's citizens in it, there are two probabilities that it will flip (one to each), but the garrisons in the city count in full for each probability.

    The capitols factor probably can probably be estimated in one of three ways:

    1) we can assume there is a 1/4 and 4x cap on the number. Take the ratio of the distance of your capitol to the distance to their captitol (specifically {your distance/their distance}) and multiply that by 2000, then apply the cap if necessary (500 or 8000).

    2) assume that the formula for capitols is graded to the map size, so that if you were at the maximum distance and they were at the minimum, it would = 500, and vise versa it would = 8000. This may or may not be the case, and is certainly the hardest to figure.

    3) Play it safe for losing flips (but not gaining) and use method 1 only if you are standing to gain the city. If you stand to lose the city, start with a base 2000, increase by considerably less than the ratio if you are closer, and decrease by more if you are further (basically using method 1 for further, and 2 for closer).

    For those who prefer a more algabraeic (sp?) formula:

    Chance of flip = {[(N + S)*C*H*R] - T}/D

    N = number of foreign nationals (resistors count as 2).
    S = number of 21 city squares under foreign control
    C = City Culture factor, 2 if foreign civ has generated more culture in this city, otherwise 1
    H = Happiness factor, 2 for disorder, 1/2 for WLTK day, otherwise 1
    T= number of garrisoning troops
    R= national cultures ratio (Foreign civ total culture divided by your civ total culture)
    D= Capitol distance factor (500 to 8000, 2000 average). Lower if they are closer, higher if you are


    From this formula, we can derive the following information if we are interested in completely preventing a culture flip in a city:

    Troops = {(N+S)*C*H*R}

    or, in english, the number of troops to prevent a flip = 1 per foreign national (2 for resistors) and 1 per square controlled by foreign civ, *2 if they have had more culture in the city, *2 if the city is in disorder, *1/2 if in WLTKD, and * the ratio of cultures (their culture divided by your culture). Also, the chance of a flip is -0- if all the citizens are yours, and you control all 21 squares in its maximum production radii. Also note that the relative distances to the capitols does NOT affect the number of troops needed to stop a flip, just the chance of a flip if there is any chance at all.

    Note: Given that the calculation for troops includes a ratio of cultures, which is not a number you can find anywhere in the game, the best you can do is estimate and overkill. The Histograph gives an eyeball approach to the numbers (ie 2 to 1, 10 to 1, etc), but that is the best you can do until they provide us with a method to see the exact value of each civs culture.

    Edits: Formula adjusted due to DeepO's & Soren's comments on page 2 of thread. Comments about estimate of culture's affect on troops needed to negate flip added. Number of foreign nationals updated to double value of resistors.
    Last edited by Fitz; June 3, 2002, 18:57.
    Fitz. (n.) Old English
    1. Child born out of wedlock.
    2. Bastard.

  • #2
    Thanks, Fitz. Useful info.
    Lime roots and treachery!
    "Eventually you're left with a bunch of unmemorable posters like Cyclotron, pretending that they actually know anything about who they're debating pointless crap with." - Drake Tungsten

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    • #3
      Thanks Fitz,

      you might want to put a link in the new CivIII FAQ thread

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      • #4
        Thanks Lucilla. Did that.
        Fitz. (n.) Old English
        1. Child born out of wedlock.
        2. Bastard.

        Comment


        • #5
          Whatever the formula is it doesn't matter unless they end this nonsense:

          Cities that have been part of one large civ for millennia should never flip.

          Garrisons should never vanish.

          Razing cities must be drastically curtailed.

          Borders should never flip over garrisoned fortresses, resources, improvements, or colonies.


          BTW, about razing, Carthage in the Third Punic War is an extreme and rare example. It took a huge Roman force to do it, and the population was sold into slavery - an option that does not exist outside of the Ancient world. And there would have been a pollution tile left where it was.

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          • #6
            Coracle, go play Civ 2.
            Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust!

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            • #7
              Hi--

              I'm posting my first post here. But Fritz, shouldn't you rearrange the formula to find the number of troops required? Your rearrangement to find T leaves R, P and D somewhere out in the cold! So:

              If original is:P=(((N+S)CH)-T) (R/D)
              then I can rearrange to :P=R(CH(N+S))-T
              .............................................D

              (I'm not changing anything in your formula here, just making it look different)

              And if we want to find the number of troops to have a probability if flip (P) of 0, we can make P=0 and rearrange as follows:

              Where P=0:
              0=R(CH(N+S))-T
              ............D

              Multiply by D on both sides: 0D = R(CH(N+S))-T
              and as anything multiplied by 0 is 0:0= R(CH(N+S))-T

              Add T to both sides:
              0+T = R(CH(N+S))
              T = R(CH(N+S))


              Also, as R, the ratio of their total culture with your total culture is a fraction, it could be written as:

              As R = Tce
              .........Tcp

              Formula could be: T=Tce(CH(N+S))
              .......................................Tcp

              (Where Tc is Total Culture and e is Enemy and p is player; and Tcx is one number, not t*c*x)

              Quod Erat Demonstadum

              Sorry Fritz if I've over complicated it, so do you mind explaining how you got your version of T?

              RK


              EDIT: Fixed a few formatting/spacing errors. Dots used to fix paragraphing.
              Last edited by Sultan Richard; May 31, 2002, 21:07.

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              • #8
                the new formula should be if (N / N != 1) { flip(); }
                "I've lived too long with pain. I won't know who I am without it. We have to leave this place, I am almost happy here."
                - Ender, from Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card

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                • #9
                  umm..... I don't know how to get paragraph spacing in this! Please help!

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Sultan Richard
                    umm..... I don't know how to get paragraph spacing in this! Please help!

                    Hit two or three times at the end of a paragraph.
                    Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust!

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                    • #11
                      So, is the algaebraic method the same as the other, just written differently, or is it actually simplified to give a rough estimate?
                      I AM.CHRISTIAN

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                      • #12
                        Thanks for putting the formula so nice Fitz.

                        I have two questions then...

                        First, a quick one. Does a courthouse help at all with fighting culture flip? I thought it did.

                        Second, a longer one. A standard thing to do to prevent flipping in a newly conquered city is to rush cultural improvements, especially temples and cathedrals.

                        However, from the formula, it seems that generating culture in the city is only useful if it is more than the other civ generated. For most cities, you will kill the other civ entirely before you generate more culture than they did.

                        So is it worth the (sometimes large) expense to rush build culture buildings in a conquered city? It seems hopeless to hope that your culture generated will ever be greater than the original civs.

                        I suppose it is useful in that 1) makes some people content, and 2) eventually might expand your culture border ... For 1, luxuries do that for me usually, and for 2, I think I'll conquer the next city before that happens.

                        So does anyone think it is worth the expense of rushing temples and cathedrals in newly conquered cities?
                        Good = Love, Love = Good
                        Evil = Hate, Hate = Evil

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by nato
                          However, from the formula, it seems that generating culture in the city is only useful if it is more than the other civ generated. For most cities, you will kill the other civ entirely before you generate more culture than they did.

                          So is it worth the (sometimes large) expense to rush build culture buildings in a conquered city? It seems hopeless to hope that your culture generated will ever be greater than the original civs.

                          I suppose it is useful in that 1) makes some people content, and 2) eventually might expand your culture border ... For 1, luxuries do that for me usually, and for 2, I think I'll conquer the next city before that happens.

                          So does anyone think it is worth the expense of rushing temples and cathedrals in newly conquered cities?
                          No. Unless you plan to end the war soon, all you need is a temple for borders. National culture is much more important than city culture, unless you plan to keep the city for a lot longer than your enemy did. It's very difficult to out-culture an opponent in one of his older cities... so don't try, and keep a high national cluture instead.
                          Lime roots and treachery!
                          "Eventually you're left with a bunch of unmemorable posters like Cyclotron, pretending that they actually know anything about who they're debating pointless crap with." - Drake Tungsten

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                          • #14
                            Courthouses are for battling corruption, not to counter culture flipping. However, there's one indirect gain from them: if you have allocated some of your tax income to luxuries, it will be more easy to avoid civil disorders, and possibly to get a WLTKD as you (should) get more tax with a courthouse.

                            DeepO

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                            • #15
                              Erm... Is there a rule of thumb as to how many troops you need in order to be sure the city will not flip?

                              -Alech
                              "Build Ports when possible. A port gives you extra resources, as well as an extra tile for a unit to stand on." - Infogrames

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