Make City Flipping an option

[Phat_Phal]

How do you think the game was designed to be played ?

Your examples are subject to many variables. Your basing your facts on circumstances which could be of infinite results.

Once again your totally missing the point. I'm not trying to get rid of the culture flipping at all. I just want to be able to disable it. Therefore all the points you've made are not relevant to the topic.

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

Well, I've said it before and I'll say it again: Though I have no problem with the concept of culture flip, and don't believe that it could ruin an ENTIRE game (especially with 1.21), I would like to see it modified so it becomes part of a broader "Balkanisation" system! ie. Culture differences, along with unhappiness, distance from opposing capitals, corruption, garrison size and tech level and government type, should decide whether or not your city goes into a state of unrest and, eventually, breaks away from your empire! Of course, such a break away should not guarantee the city going to another Civ, but might, in fact, form the basis of a new Civilization! (like the CW model in Civ2). If you should lose a city in this way, then you should lose about half your garrison units (defectors!) and the other half should recieve damage and get shoved over to the nearest city! (How many units are lost and how much damage units recieve would depend on the ratio of garrison to Pop Points!)
Anyway, thats just a point of view! I would Love to see the Civil War system from Civ2 make a comeback but, if it doesn't, I won't be COMPLETELY heartbroken!!

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker

[Travathian]

I just want to be able to disable it. Therefore all the points you've made are not relevant to the topic.

Sure they are, look at what I said about balance, by you disabling culture flipping, you're unbalancing the game in favor of the warmonger.

How do you think the game was designed to be played ?

As a warmonger, a builder, or a hybrid. Culture flipping is the counter to Great Leaders, if you wanna take out one, take out the other as well. Keep the balance.

[Phat_Phal]

First of all Travathian, its an option I'd like to take. Obviously your a builder I'm guessing you don't like wars and you don't playing against warmongers as you classified them. How I see it is thats your choice, and thats fine. But I want to make a choice as well. A different choice on an aspect of the game and right now there is no such option to make the other choice.

If you don't like Great Leaders start a thread focusing on how you want Great Leaders out of the game or be made an option, whatever.

The point is you are stepping around the topic to make a reasonable point. BUT its irrelavant to this topic so please stick to the topic.

One last point to make, I don't think you can classify how people play the game. Well not the way you classify them anyway.

[star mouse]

Originally posted by Miznia
Are you naysayers (like star mouse and Stuie) saying it would make the game *easier* if there were no culture flipping? Wouldn't it be harder, and in a sense more honest, because you have to conquer all the cities you get?

It will make the game somewhat easier because you don't have to worry about garrisoning a city with lots of troops to prevent a flip. Keeping cities instead of razing them is more viable, so your empire is likely to be larger.

So you should take a score penalty because your score is likely to be higher in a non-flip game.

[Stuie]

Originally posted by Bautou
In any case, I don't see why people are in such opposition to the simple option of having the *possibility* of being able to disable culture flipping....

My opposition is simple: I don't want Firaxis to waste ANY time disabling a working part of the game. Culture, as much as some people dislike it, works as advertised. I want Firaxis to improve upon and add features to the game in the time they have to work on any patches and the expansion pack, not trash existing features.

[zulu9812]

Absolutely - Firaxis should, if anything, improve culture flipping - not get rid of it.

[DeepO]

I love culture flipping (just voicing my support), but I can understand people want to turn it off. However, wouldn't it be a solution if you just get an indication how likely it is that a certain city flips? E.g. if it is more than 50%, display a number saying 'flipping is possible', if it is 80% displaying 'flipping is imminent(sp?)'. That should mean you can still do something about it, or take precautions to not loose too many troops if it does.

Besides, is there an exact formula known for the flipping chance? I'd love to see it!

DeepO

[darthx86]

Originally posted by DeepO
I love culture flipping (just voicing my support), but I can understand people want to turn it off. However, wouldn't it be a solution if you just get an indication how likely it is that a certain city flips? E.g. if it is more than 50%, display a number saying 'flipping is possible', if it is 80% displaying 'flipping is imminent(sp?)'. That should mean you can still do something about it, or take precautions to not loose too many troops if it does.

Besides, is there an exact formula known for the flipping chance? I'd love to see it!

DeepO

Exactly. Non-warmongers can disable, de-tune, etc, those units (et al) that aren't conducive to their playing style. Why not be able to reduce or eliminate the culture flip, since a cultural victory can be turned off in the first place?

[DeepO]

erhm... I was asking for knowing the formula, not asking to be able to change it.

I don't have a problem with people asking to be able to turn it off, even if I think you miss a key element of the game. I will always play this game in 'blend' mode, as it came out of the box (well, patched of course). Apart from scenarios that is

DeepO

[exsanguination]

all this culture-flip bashing, and...

am I the only person who has NEVER had one of my own cities flip?

[darthx86]

Originally posted by DeepO I don't have a problem with people asking to be able to turn it off, even if I think you miss a key element of the game.

Turning off culture flip will do no more to unbalance (edit: or cause players to miss key portions of) the game than enabling lethal bombard, disabling diplomatic victory, changing strategic resource frequency, or any other game-altering option that Firaxis has provided.

The whole point of having these options is to make the game fun and adaptive to the player's style... that's it.

[DeepO]

darthx86, all this is fine by me, but why do you use quotes from my posts? I did not agree nor disagree directly, I can't see a reason why you start from a quote from me.

To give some direct comments to you (so a quote would be at its place here ): I don't think culture flipping is to be placed at the same level as disabling diplomatic victory, or strategic resource placing. The reason for this is being mentioned in this thread numerous times: the AI can't be adopted that easily to counter such a key concept. The spreading of resources does not alter one bit to the AI routines, and diplomatic victories are, to my knowledge, never a goal of the AI. And even if it was, just deleting a possible goal is easy.

Taking into effect that culture flipping can't occur is not simple: it's a whole strategy that has to be changed. People can do this in a few moments time, AIs can not. This has to be separately programmed for, and I can't imagine that Soren has an extra month or so to spend on this...

BTW, lethal bombardmenst are not that easy for the AI either: I heard bombardments of ships can now be lethal, this is most likely something the AI does not take into account. So while it might be easier for the humans to have this option, the AI will not, or rarely benefit from it. And believe me, this is just a small aspect in comparison to the idea of culture.

DeepO

[darthx86]

Originally posted by DeepO
darthx86, all this is fine by me, but why do you use quotes from my posts? I did not agree nor disagree directly, I can't see a reason why you start from a quote from me.

Sorry - I'm in class right now and have limited time to grab specific clauses, so I just grabbed the whole thing. Note, I went back and edited the previous post for clarity.

... the AI can't be adopted that easily to counter such a key concept... [culture flipping] is a whole strategy that has to be changed. People can do this in a few moments time, AIs can not.

I disagree... somewhat. While the diplomatic goal is already built in, the editing of units, GW, SW, etc. would be much more difficult for the AI to work around.

(Back to culture flip.) Since culture flip is confusing and (at best) random, human players can't plan on it. If human players can't plan for it, then neither can the AI. I agree that culture is an important part of the game, but it still has an impact without the culture flip (namely all diplomatic relations).

But back to my original point. I believe that the more options to customize a game, the better. Since the game is supposed to be fun, and since this version of Civ 3 is single player only, who cares if enabling an option unbalances the game?

When the expansion pack comes out, we'll talk again.

[Geekinstein]

Sez Phat_Phal:
"Sure they've built up this game wonderful for those passive players who love to build up their cities and play the game in a peaceful way. Without ever showing aggression to anyone because they can take over their enemies with this culture flipping.

What about the people who loved the war aspect of the game. Why weren't the aggressive players of civ given an opportunity to play the game without incurring countless more troubles and hassles."

Hey PP, I'm a convert! Far from the peaceful Civ I/II builder I once was, I now harrass other team leaders at work with, "give me at least one worker off your project or I'll bombard your cubicle with coffee grounds from the break room." After my training at the hands of the Civ III AI, I regularly pull off Machiavellian witticisms in meetings such as: "Huh?" and "I have three words for you: Increase your medication."

So, due to my Civ III training, never again will I be the pencil-necked geek of the office!

You got a problem with that? Well, do ya punk?