Firaxis - Listen Please!!!

[nato]

Now that you mention it, it is odd that one unit could raze a size 20 city.

However I don't think it is that big a problem. In an actual game, size 20 cities are only going to be captured with large armies fighting over them, and large armies could raze a large city if they were there long enough and enough fighting happened. For instance Stalingrad was a very large city, but it was effectively razed.

That is just one example out of all of history though, so its not a big deal... just like too much is made of the Zulus at Rorke's Drift for the combat model and Marc Antony for culture flipping (ha ha!).

What I am saying is you are correct. Your hypothetical example is ridiculous and is possible in the game. However, practically speaking in a real game, no large city is going to be captured without large armies fighting ... and large armies fighting could raze large cities.

It should be rare though, and the AI definitely should not be programmed to do it too often. Human players can restrain themselves if it is unrealistic to them ... MP might be another matter though...

A toggle or some sort of restriction is a good idea, but since I don't think it will really come up to often in a real game, I don't know if I think it is super important.

[Coracle]

And what happens to all the bodies?? You set up Auschwitz-style crematoria on a massive scale??

Culture Flipping is dumb. Razing huge cities is a lot dumber.

[nato]

Well I figure quite a lot get killed, but most turn into refugees. Whenever there is some major crisis, there are always great streams of refugees fleeing the cities, who then become a problem somewhere else.

I don't like razing large cities either. But for SP I don't see it as a problem ... MP it could be I guess...

[notyoueither]

Akka le Vil's suggestion is the best I've seen on this topic so far.

You could go a bit further and reduce the pop loss if the city has a Aquaduct and again for a Hospital. That way weak ancient units would not be able to raze any major pop centre, and it would indeed require a major effort to completely destroy a modern metropolis.

It would also negate the need for the seperate 'abandon city' command.

[nato]

Yes Akka's suggestion is excellent.

Hurricane's suggestion to only allow razing of cities size 7 and under is not quite as neat as Akka's, but would be quite sufficient if you ask me. It also would probably be much much easier to implement.

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by nato
Now that you mention it, it is odd that one unit could raze a size 20 city.
... and large armies fighting could raze large cities.

It should be rare though, and the AI definitely should not be programmed to do it too often. Human players can restrain themselves if it is unrealistic to them ... MP might be another matter though...

I once saw the Zulus raze Chicago. It seemed real to me, and totally evil. It left a huge hole in a map of thriving cities. I was America's neighbor. I declared war on the Zulus and destroyed their army saving America. I never raze, but can easily see a terrible and abrupt destruction considered as "realistic." There are zillions of possible modifications to make the tactic not so all or nothing, though. I'm all for changes to the game.

Certain governments should not be able to raze, probably only Despotism. This would limit razing somewhat.

[Tuberski]

I think Despotism, Monarchy, and maybe Communism should be the only ones allowed. If republic or democracy tried it, there should be some sort of happiness penalty.

[notyoueither]

I believe the Romans were quite happy when Carthage was salted under.

[Akka]

Originally posted by nato
Yes Akka's suggestion is excellent.

Hurricane's suggestion to only allow razing of cities size 7 and under is not quite as neat as Akka's, but would be quite sufficient if you ask me. It also would probably be much much easier to implement.

Well thanks

But still, I don't think my idea is hard to implement.
It's basically a pop-rush of 2 citizen to make a worker, activated by clicking on "pillaging" in the unit's menu. All the tools and the coding is already in the game.

You will even have the population screaming "We can't forgot your cruel oppression"

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by notyoueither
I believe the Romans were quite happy when Carthage was salted under.

Republic. Good point. And it didn't take 25 years (one turn)!

[Tuberski]

Originally posted by Zachriel


Republic. Good point. And it didn't take 25 years (one turn)!

So, basically we are back to the theory that a unit CAN raze a city.

[notyoueither]

Yes. Carthage itself was not that big AFAIK, but there were a lot of Legions on hand to put the old foe down once and for all.

Going by Ancient units kill 1 pop point, 6 Legions could destroy a size 6 city in one turn. If you put breaks on it depending on improvements, then they would be unable to effect a size 7 city.

[Tuberski]

How would you implement that? I mean leave a bunch of units around to raze a city, kind of slows down the game even more.

[Coracle]

The only thing stupider than Culture Flipping borders and cities is razing them.

One unit can magically wipe out a metropolis, kill millions of people with ease, and make the corpses disappear without so much as a tile of pollution.

It is truly absurd.

[nato]

Hey good idea Coracle! The old city tile could be polluted after a razing, to represent the ruins and rubble that have to be cleared. If there weren't too many razings in ancient time, global warming wouldn't be a big concern.

Even when you're not trying you're brilliant!

Well thanks

But still, I don't think my idea is hard to implement.

Well thats a good point. If it could work it would be great!

Watch out though, once I had an idea using existing functions, and Dan himself posted to tell me it wasn't as simple as using the existing code...